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Published on:

5th Jul 2024

Chris Boardman: Cycling's renaissance man

Chris Boardman won an Olympic gold medal on the track, set multiple hour records and wore the Tour de France yellow jersey on three different occasions after dominating the prologues.

Bobby Julich and Jens Voigt check in on their former teammate to discover how he's juggling his post-cycling careers of commentary, UK politics, engineering and pushing grassroots sport.

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Transcript
Speaker:

Hello everyone, and welcome back

to another episode of The Odd Tandem.

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My name is Bobby Julich and sitting

across from me virtually is Jens Voigt.

3

:

Jens.

4

:

I hear that you are going to be headed

over to the tour de France

5

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and hanging off the back of a motorcycle

here in a couple of days.

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I mean, it's Thursday before the tour.

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Are you getting excited?

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I am, and yes, I will be

9

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for the first nine days on a motorbike

starting in Florence.

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Florence.

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Beautiful Italy,

nine days on a motorbike for Eurosport.

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Commentating live from the race

which will be absolutely fantastic.

13

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But also nerve wracking.

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So you know, a lot of you, Christian Vande

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Velde, a couple of our other friends

do the same thing for other networks.

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What is the pucker factor when you're

on the back of that motorcycle?

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Is there a couple times

where you're just kind of hanging on

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and hoping that everything works

out? Or is it pretty safe?

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Mostly it's pretty safe.

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Yes, absolutely.

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But yeah, well, I got a motorbike license,

so I knew what I was was getting into.

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But literally,

your life is in the hands of the pilot.

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There's nothing, absolutely nothing

you can do to influence that.

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So when you're on a motorbike,

you've got to be a little bit proactive.

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It's not like you get in a car

and you put on a seatbelt and relax

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and fall to sleep. That doesn't work.

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You got to be watching ahead

to make sure you see

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if the road turns to the left

or to the right,

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or if the crash is happening

and your pilot has to brake.

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The last thing he needs is you 80 kilos

of weight bouncing into his back

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when he's trying to control the motorbike

and his own weight.

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So you've got to be awake all day long.

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there's a few moments where you go.

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I wouldn't do this,

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but since the pilot is doing it,

you go, well, I guess I gotta follow.

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And if he leans to the left,

everything instead of you screams.

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I don't want to lean down.

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I don't know what lead to the left,

but you have to,

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because that's

for the balance of the bike.

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So you have to follow, the pilot.

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But so far I had 4 or 5 different pilots.

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I like them all.

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So I have no problem.

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I have no trust issues.

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The guys are good, even though

at the start I always go, hey, listen.

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I'm happily married with children.

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I want to go home in one piece.

I hope you two.

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And that's how we work.

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Well, thank you for for doing that for us.

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I mean, I know

we don't have Eurosport over here, but,

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it it adds a really cool

aspect to the sport.

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But talking about that,

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adding a

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cool aspect to the sport,

we had such a cool guest today.

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He was world

champion, Olympic champion on the track.

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He was a specialist and innovator.

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One of our old teammates, Chris Boardman.

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How cool was that

Jensie speaking with old Chris?

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I know it was absolutely amazing,

brought back so many memories.

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He was my first roommate

in, first training camp

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December 97.

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We had the first training camp,

the first come together

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training camp, my first roommate,

and it was absolutely fantastic.

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I was, of course intimidated, you know,

Olympic champion, world champion, and,

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you know, on the track later

on a road time training.

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So it was absolutely great to catch up.

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And he is still a bundle of knowledge

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and a bundle of wisdom.

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Yeah.

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I was super happy that we got him

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speaking so much because, you know,

when he was in the team bus,

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he always had his head buried in a book

and said very, very little.

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So sit back and relax

and listen to our great interview

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with Commander Chris Boardman.

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All right everyone, pretty special episode

for Jensie

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and I today here on the Odd Tandem

we have Commander Chris Boardman.

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Chris, welcome to the show.

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No one's saluting. Why is no one saluting

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this?

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It’s taken me ages to train the kids.

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Actually.

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In fact,

with my little bit of history knowledge.

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Are you holding the same rank as Mr.

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James Bond?

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actually, I had this conversation

with my wife, apparently.

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Daniel Craig or I went to school with us,

I think, you know, did you know that?

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I don't know if you do that.

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I was in the same class at school

with, with Daniel Craig.

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I think he's got a higher rank.

But I'm not bitter.

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Not bitter at all.

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The way that it works in

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in England

with the abbreviations, with the titles.

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Can you kind of

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tell us the, the steps of these titles

because, you know, Mark Cavendish was,

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is now sir Mark Cavendish,

you are now Commander Boardman.

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But can you explain to our listeners

over here in the States

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that what does that mean exactly?

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And what is the tiers of it?

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I think it means

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Mark can tell me to do push ups,

and I can tell you to do push ups.

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I think that's how it works.

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Roughly speaking.

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It's, there's loads of them.

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There's loads of them and they've all got.

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It's just this ancient stuff

that's actually quite quirky and, to to

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to understand if you ever take the time.

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But it's just a nice recognition

of what people do.

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And, you know, certainly

Mark deserves his stuff doesn’t he.

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He's been

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God I can't believe

how long he's been around

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when in bike races when you count it up,

how many.

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It's just ridiculous.

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So it's just nice

as a way to to recognise it.

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What do you have in the States?

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We I don't think we have anything.

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You have money,

you know, outside of the military,

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probably the next big thing is probably

Bobby gets a lifetime

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senator suite in the Trump Tower.

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That's probably his acknowledgment,

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whether you like it or not, man,

we can't talk politics on the show, right?

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Right. Andy? No.

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is that a rule?

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If you got a rule about so politics.

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I live in politics now.

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I don't know how it happened,

but I'm, like, involved in it.

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And actually, I'm

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technically, contractually

not allowed to talk about politics

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because I work for the government.

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But, Chris, let's let's start

right from the beginning.

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How and when

and where did you start cycling?

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When did you discover that, hey,

cycling might be a sport for myself?

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Let's start at the beginning here.

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Oh my God, that's a long time ago.

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When I was 13, I mean, cycling

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was like a family thing, and that's

what we did on a Thursday night.

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We'd all go somewhere,

so, I mean, dad could ride a race,

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and then eventually there

let me have a go in the race.

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And then it sort of started from there,

really. And then it became,

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well, gets a bit deep, really.

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But, you know, that's a way

to have some self-esteem as a young kid.

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And then it becomes how you meet girls

and then then it becomes your sport.

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And then then it's your job

and then your 32.

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So it's it's quite a rapid journey.

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And it was, it was interesting,

but I've enjoyed the bit afterwards.

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You were always one of the most

intellectual cyclists I ever came across.

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And, you know, I came to the team

that you were a big part of

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started as gone

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and then switched over to,

Agricole when I joined you in:

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And that just happened to be the year

that you retired.

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But, you know, you had a big influence

on the young riders, you know,

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Stuart O'Grady, Magnus Backstedt,

Jensie the list goes, goes on and on.

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So what are some of your memories

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of these young kids

that became legends of the sport?

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when when they just kind of came to gone

and Credit Agricole in those early days?

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You must you must have just been sitting

there scratching your head a little bit.

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The probably not as wholesome

as you had been my first

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when you just said, these young

kids, your influences.

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I can remember sitting there

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with a pint in Paris airport going,

I am a man, I could drink this.

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And then we it was it got quite messy.

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after it.

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I kinda remember the human bit of it,

but we were all kids.

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We were all in our early 20s or mid 20s,

and just finding our way...

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And it was just absolutely fascinating.

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we we we have money.

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When you weren't supposed to have money

at that age and people bought cars

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and did stupid things,

Jensie was actually the sensible one.

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He was

the one we'd like, had an estate car

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not to take people to the airport

because everyone else bought sports cars.

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And I think you were the one

who mowed the grass at your place as well.

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so it was a real mixed bag, but it was,

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it was looking back,

it was just kids with status

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and the money

that they had no idea what to do with it.

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I think on the on the bike riding a bit,

I just like making things.

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I was fascinated with performance

and how you get better and,

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and I'd had some experiences where

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I'd bumped into some

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people outside of our world,

aerodynamicist and engineers,

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and they just asked brilliant questions

like, what do you ride in that position?

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What do you do in this position?

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And then I had an experience in a wind

tunnel that allowed me to go and explore.

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And so that knowledge came into our world,

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and it was such cycling

was such a closed shop in those days.

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The previous person

that had really changed things was Greg

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LeMond, where he'd come in with a

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wholly different experience,

and he he changed the way we did things.

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So every few years I think

new knowledge comes into the sport.

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And I brought some from Lotus

and engineers that, that,

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that made a difference.

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and it was good fun actually.

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It was part good.

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Thought it,

it was part really horrible as well,

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because I used to get a real kick

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in every time we used to go up a mountain,

and I didn't enjoy that bit.

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And for all of us to, to for a better

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understanding,

crisp design back in the days when we had

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it was still officially allowed

to use a front wheel off a smaller size.

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Chris had his own designed,

fork and handlebar combination,

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so his handlebars would be coming out

on top of the fork and not on

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top of the steering or part of the

frame, but out on the forks.

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Absolutely fantastic design.

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Nowadays,

I think they declare all that illegal, but

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yet Chris was quite innovative,

I have to admit.

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Right, Chris,

that was you only road, these type

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of of a fork and frame combination right?

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Yeah.

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It was it was driven by understand

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that, previous understanding of

of being in wind tunnels and knowing that,

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what shape I could get me into.

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And I'm 80% of the frontal area,

so get me smaller.

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Makes a big difference.

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and I had some experience in wind tunnels

that showed me that difference.

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So when I came to the pro world

and you had bikes,

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that was has a small, medium

and large pick thinking, well,

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you'd taken away most of the advantage

I've had.

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luckily that we worked for somebody

that would let me

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bring my own ideas,

bring my own stuff with me.

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and that was.

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That was really important. Really.

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I'm not sure all teams

would have done that.

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So I designed my own, handlebar

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and fork combination

that I got manufactured in the UK

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so I could get the position

that I wanted on a bike.

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and then

the werewolf we were sponsored by.

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I think it was Eddie Merckx in those days.

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Eddie Merckx bikes, which were pretty,

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agricultural in their design.

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and we had the flexibility to go, well,

I've actually got this Lotus machine.

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Could we use that?

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And we had a boss in Roger Legeay

that went okay,

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I'll see if I can square that.

I made it work. In fact.

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No, it wasn't when I first started.

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It was, it was actually Greg LeMond.

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But he was so obsessed with performance,

even though he was sponsoring the team,

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he went, yeah, let's use those bikes.

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They look better than mine.

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So it was it was a time when you

could do that because you hadn't invested.

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Yeah, it might have sponsors that were so,

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so heavily invested in the sport.

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We have the flexibility

to experiment a bit.

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So it was a nice time.

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So when you won the Olympics in 1992,

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you did the four kilometer

individual pursuit.

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do you remember what your time was

and what size

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your front chainring was,

or what gear that you were using?

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No, I can only just about remember

that you turned left and it was 16 laps.

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the I get asked that kind of stuff a lot.

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I'm the technical details

and I'm afraid I can't.

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I'm,

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I mean, you want to try

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writing an autobiography

when you have no memory and don't look.

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Don't look backwards.

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And I feel a bit uncomfortable sometimes,

but I.

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I've just got used to the fact

that I just lose interest in

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what happened because I'm interested in

what's fascinating and what's next.

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And it's it feels like a million years

ago, the Olympic Games.

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I mean, it did a lot.

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It opened up a lot of opportunities,

allowed me to do things today

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in government because I got my foot in the

door when other people don't.

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but it

was a it was a wonderful experience.

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And then I just want to turn the page and

watch the next thing and the next thing

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the Olympics.

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Then,

I mean, I can remember so for so long ago,

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the digital clock at the side of the track

was one where you painted

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the numbers on and little things

flipped over to change it.

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You know, that was that long ago.

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It was in color. They

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I can fill in there

because I spent so much time with Chris

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as a room mate at in the team

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between the pre round and the final

he went to the movies to relax.

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He liked the two hours in the darkness

and watch the movie.

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I can't name the movie.

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But you went to the movies and

in the final he was up against Colinelli.

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The both were going out

like rockets on world record speed.

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And every lap, every kilometer.

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Chris looked over.

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He's at my speed, he's my speed.

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He's going to blow, he's

going to blow, he's going to blow.

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He's going to blow.

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And in the end, Colinelli did like what

one lap or two laps to go.

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He actually lost

I think hopefully up to you.

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But until then you were like face

to face, head to head.

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And you went okay, I can hold this speed.

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There's no way in hell

he can hold the speed.

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You were just fully trusting

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that Colinelli on the other side

is gonna blow up in the end.

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And, actually, it did happen like that.

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I remember it

like yesterday when you taught me.

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Yeah, that one was,

that was 96, with Colinelli And he just.

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He'd already decided I'm going to go out.

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Really quick and see if I can scare him,

and that I think that's the beauty of the

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time trials.

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And both of you, particularly you, Bobby,

are really familiar

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with that is it's most of it is about you.

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It's not about the other people

that are in the race.

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Most of it's about you and looking inwards

and working out.

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How fast am I going? How far is it to go?

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Can I keep this up?

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And if the answer's yes,

you're not going hard enough.

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If the answer's no, it's already too late.

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The answer you're looking for is maybe

all the time, but all of that is internal.

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and so you just got to trust

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in those events when you can get

wrapped up in trying to match

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somebody else on a track

for the first 2 or 3 minutes.

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You ready to just think about yourself,

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and then you can start

to look at the other person, because I,

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I learned it

very early on with the psychologist who,

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who told me, doesn't matter

how much money is involved,

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it doesn't matter

how many people are watching.

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Whatever the size of the prize,

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you can only do

what the best that you can,

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and then cross the line and

look at the board and see what it got you.

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And it sounds very simplistic,

but it's a great way to treat life really,

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it is just okay,

I'll just be the best that I can.

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I, I when I've crossed the line,

I'll see what it gets me.

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And I use that to this day in jobs

that I do now.

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That's all you can do.

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Well, we are going a little

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bit back because, you know,

I was a time trial guy.

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I was teammates with you,

and I was trying to pick your brain and,

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this is my memory of the conversation

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because I asked you about pacing, pacing,

a time trial.

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What is your technique on pacing?

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Because, you know,

especially later in my career

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and then coaching,

you know, at some of these teams,

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we we always thought of,

you know, negative splits and, you know,

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going over your threshold on the climbs

and then recovering on the descents.

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But one thing that you said to me,

and I hope it is it,

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you remember it and I'm remember it,

remember it correctly.

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You were like, I go 400W the whole time.

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And I'm like, wait, Chris,

there's a climb in this one.

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He's like, yeah, I go 400 up the climb

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and then I go 400 on the false flat,

and then I go 400 on the descent.

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I'm basically stable power.

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is that true?

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How did you pace your time trials?

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Because you were such an ace at it,

especially in the prologs.

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I think there's some paraphrasing

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in there because,

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the, the whole Watts thing was a language

that came along when we were kids,

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when we were, doing this,

and we were suddenly able

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to measure effort,

we could actually see a number for effort.

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And it was a great tool.

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But a lot of people became a slave to it,

and it worked against you.

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So for everything, for training,

you understood your own performance

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and you could measure it

and you could look at,

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a thing that told you what the number was

for that and that helped you

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go a little bit more on a little bit less

than.

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The important thing

was to understand what that felt like.

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And then when it came to race day,

it was about what it felt like,

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and the conversation that we had

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was about making this about your effort

and not about the terrain.

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there's some nuances.

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So, you know,

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if you know, you've got massive descents,

then you can go slightly into the red.

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And because you're going

to have to freewheel on the descent.

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So understanding

the course was a big part of it,

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but ultimately

it was all about being on your limit

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all the time and not going over it

because you feel

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you should be going quicker up this climb

or whatever, not responding to that

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emotional element, but sticking

with understanding what that felt like.

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Fun to watch and sticking to that

and making sure that you

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you didn't overextend

because you'd pay a price later.

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And that the wonderful thing

and the horrible thing about a time trial

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is you don't get to recover your precious

supposedly on the pedals all of the time.

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And so if you go into the read too early

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and too early is

before the last two minutes, then

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the cost of recovery is so high

you can't do it.

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And it takes tremendous, mental

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discipline

and self-confidence to know that

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I can't go any hard in this,

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because if I do, then

I'm going to kill it.

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And, I probably that was what I was

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rather crudely trying to express.

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It's a, it's a, it's a mesh, isn't it?

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Between being a science and an artful.

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Hey, Chris.

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one question like,

I think I always wanted to ask,

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already back in the days,

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what did you like

better, winning the Olympics

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with the world record

or catching the world champion?

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what was the name of the French rider?

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Luc LeBlanc, catching Luc LeBlanc at the

tour de France prologue for a minute.

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In, what, 5.5km, passing the bloody word

champion on the finishing straight.

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What was the better

feeling? What? What do you think?

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I think, I think the tour de

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France is the biggest, I mean, it's

actually been asked that before.

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What's.

389

:

World hour record, tour de France prologue

or Olympic Games.

390

:

and I've over 20 odd years.

391

:

I've dodged the question

because the three things were really

392

:

the first one was unemployed carpenter,

393

:

wife, two kids, absolutely no money.

394

:

this is your this is your 15 minutes.

395

:

This is it.

It either works or it doesn't.

396

:

And so that opened up all the other

possibilities and an Olympic gold medal.

397

:

You know, you can go into

398

:

you go into the outback, into the wilds

or jungle and say, Olympics.

399

:

And people go, oh, yeah,

I know what that is.

400

:

And so Olympics are always special.

401

:

It transcends each individual sport.

402

:

But then

403

:

in our sport at the time,

because there was no world time

404

:

trial championships, the tour de France

was the unofficial world time trial.

405

:

The prologue was the unofficial world

time trial championships to the world.

406

:

And that was that was the big deal.

407

:

and I went to that year, 1994,

408

:

everybody went for a three week race.

409

:

I went for seven minutes, and everything

had been predicated on seven minutes.

410

:

I'd like training and the warm up

and then the pre pre review of the course

411

:

beforehand to look at the bends and where

every pothole and manhole cover was.

412

:

and that was just

413

:

you know,

that was the entry into the pro world.

414

:

and of course, it's the only stage

where you get the yellow jersey as well,

415

:

which we hadn't had since

Tommy Simpson. I don't think.

416

:

so that I mean, and to catch Luc LeBlanc

417

:

after him saying the year

before that, half the peloton

418

:

could beat the hour record

now, that was quite amusing,

419

:

but that that they were the days when,

he just got his bike time trial bike

420

:

and seen it for the first time

on the morning of the time trial

421

:

and started to adjust it with allen keys

and thing, and it was so rudimentary,

422

:

remarkable, really.

423

:

And then I'd come along as,

somebody who'd thought

424

:

about it, rehashed it, fettled it,

425

:

and, that approach to a prologue

had not been seen before.

426

:

It was something you just did

and got out of the way.

427

:

But this is a really valuable thing

in the sport.

428

:

You know, to be able to for a team

429

:

to be able to take a yellow jersey on day

one is your insurance policy.

430

:

and I'd seen that, that value and I'm not

431

:

I suppose it had an impact on

everything that came after.

432

:

And then the record, I think the 1 in 96

433

:

of the three things I had done

that was physically the best I ever was,

434

:

and we even got the lowest pressure

record day,

435

:

the lowest pressure on record

in Manchester for the day of that.

436

:

And it was absolutely perfect.

437

:

You couldn't have changed anything else,

438

:

and it's probably the only performance

where

439

:

I look back and think there was nothing.

440

:

I would have changed everything.

441

:

You can find something

you'd have done differently.

442

:

So I find it hard to split

those three things, to be honest.

443

:

But yeah,

sticking it to Luc Leblanc was quite nice.

444

:

And, you know, my, I was

445

:

just kind of really getting into cycling

and dreaming about the tour de France.

446

:

And I remember watching that and,

447

:

you know, you beat my hero

Miguel Indurain by 15 seconds.

448

:

And I remember Phil Liggett,

you know, commentating.

449

:

And you just were like, just flying.

450

:

But I know we don't want to go

too much into the weeds here

451

:

because this was so long ago.

452

:

But I have to ask

because you mentioned the warm up.

453

:

Do you remember your warm up protocol

for that day?

454

:

Yeah, 15 minutes,

455

:

15 minutes, two short efforts

and then stop.

456

:

And I think,

457

:

I think it was the same thing.

458

:

It was, it's very hard to not

459

:

get on the turbo trainer

or the rollers and do something

460

:

because everybody's really nervous

and just wants to do something.

461

:

And the hardest bit is to wait.

462

:

And that warm up finished ten minutes

before the start and knock further away.

463

:

And I'd already done the signing

on. I'd already done the numbers.

464

:

I knew exactly how long it would

take me to get to the start.

465

:

Really just thought everything through.

466

:

and it had been practiced.

467

:

You know, I've been in practice

for for several years,

468

:

and I knew it worked

and there was no need to deviate from it.

469

:

yeah.

470

:

It's quite hard

when those times of stress to,

471

:

to stick to what, you know, works.

472

:

I remember two things,

and I used them for my entire life.

473

:

Chris was the first man who ever told me

with his British Liverpool accent,

474

:

hey, yeah, it's always better to be

at the giving

475

:

end of pain than to be

at the receiving end of the pain.

476

:

I always remember my dad

and I thought it was not

477

:

control last, but you've actually got

only you've got five kids,

478

:

so think of me as well.

479

:

Do six, six Chris yeah, yeah, I'm chasing

you hard, my friend.

480

:

I got six as well.

481

:

It's 12 kids in between us. The baby.

482

:

Oh my God, if I had two kids,

I would shoot myself I remember.

483

:

that one, that every year,

when you had another kid I just laughed.

484

:

Yeah. okay. Do you didn't.

485

:

That wasn't the police, I remember.

486

:

Oh, yeah.

487

:

The other thing I remember from Chris is

488

:

the morning before time trial or the week

before the tour de France.

489

:

You cannot ride yourself

into shape anymore, but you can

490

:

very well rideyourself into the ground.

491

:

And I'll always try to remember that.

492

:

I remember do I did I learned that one

the hard way.

493

:

I think we all did.

We tried to force form.

494

:

I'll just do some more.

495

:

with a week to go.

496

:

It's just don't just don't.

497

:

The only thing you can do is damage.

498

:

just wait, wait, wait, wait.

499

:

We just touched on it. Really?

500

:

Waiting is the hardest thing, isn't it?

501

:

It's just. It's always the hardest thing.

502

:

You want to do something to try

and make the result you want.

503

:

Because you've got to wait.

504

:

it's hard to do nothing, particularly

for highly motivated people.

505

:

You hit that nail on the head

because I remember,

506

:

it may have been the Midi Libre

in:

507

:

we were doing a time trial and, like,

508

:

like 15, 20 minutes before

509

:

I go in to, you know, put on my skin suit

and you're just there, like,

510

:

reading a book, like not doing anything,

just reading a book.

511

:

And I'm like, man, Chris.

512

:

Like, so do you have a start time

in like 20 minutes?

513

:

And you're like, yeah, I do.

514

:

So like you, you mastered that relaxation

before a prologue

515

:

or a time trial

that that I don't think, I, I ever did.

516

:

I mastered the bluffing.

517

:

If you'd looked at the book, I'd have seen

I'd read the same page three times.

518

:

And if you looked at the heart

rate monitor, it was about 130.

519

:

So I just after I mastered the cool look,

I think that was the thing

520

:

inside.

521

:

It was just go check, check, check check.

522

:

But I, I,

523

:

I remember, you know, you said that,

you know, you concentrated

524

:

on these short efforts and whatnot,

but I remember:

525

:

you and Lance Armstrong,

526

:

and I think it was Jalabert

were just, like, tag teaming each other.

527

:

And you, I don't

528

:

I think Jalabert wound up winning,

but you were like second or third.

529

:

You know, Paris-Nice is a very hard stage

race.

530

:

Did you change anything specifically

in your training that year to allow you

531

:

to be able to stomp on everybody

but those other two guys?

532

:

I had a couple of years

until when I it just fell right.

533

:

and form was good.

534

:

So that one was that 96

535

:

was that 96, 96, 95 or 96?

536

:

The 96?

537

:

I was in good shape.

538

:

I was in good shape that year.

539

:

And and I was discovering what I was

capable of.

540

:

But, I mean, we got caught up in the

whole the, the drugs thing around us.

541

:

and it was really hard to know

542

:

to predict what comes next

and whether you.

543

:

But that was just a moment where,

oh my God, I seem to be able to win stuff.

544

:

Great.

545

:

Go for it.

546

:

And it was, it was it was wonderful.

547

:

I think it was the mid labor actually.

I think it was.

548

:

I don't remember that.

549

:

It was it was a great experience.

550

:

So, Chris, you retired

551

:

relatively early at 32 or 33 right.

552

:

Yeah.

553

:

So where did life take you from there

554

:

after this beautiful, successful career?

555

:

Married?

Not a carpenter anymore. Six kids.

556

:

Where did your life go after that? Not.

557

:

Not where you'd expect,

I think, I was made up to stop.

558

:

I was it was great.

559

:

And I was really happy to stop.

560

:

And it's probably not

many people get to stop on.

561

:

They're on their own terms.

562

:

and I just had enough. In 2000.

563

:

so the hour record, the athletes hour

record was the last thing I ever did.

564

:

and it was really exciting.

565

:

I thought I'll retire.

566

:

And that lasted about three weeks

until I got bored of that.

567

:

And I wrote for,

568

:

I wrote for a scuba diving magazine

because I was really interested in that.

569

:

And I went round the world

reviewing training courses and cave dive

570

:

in and all sorts of stuff, and that was

that was good fun.

571

:

Didn't make any money, but it was great.

572

:

and I got an email from

573

:

a really badly written email

from a guy called Alan Ingarfield

574

:

who was a triathlete,

and I was going to push delete.

575

:

And Sally,

my wife said, now go on, go meet him.

576

:

And this guy wanted to start a bike

company.

577

:

and, Sally said, no go and meet him.

578

:

It's only over in Liverpool,

so not far from me so i thought ok.

579

:

And I go and meet him.

580

:

And then that ended up being

581

:

Boardman Bikes Limited, which to this day

sells about 50,000 bikes.

582

:

Yeah.

583

:

So the.

584

:

So that was good.

585

:

so that, that occupied quite a few years.

586

:

And that was just at the time

when cycling was getting on the up,

587

:

really become invisible.

588

:

2007 by the time we got the company going,

589

:

and then we had the tour de France

in the UK, and it was a great time.

590

:

But I’d also got involved

in advocating for cycling

591

:

for just getting to school

and going to work.

592

:

And I realized, my God, this machine

that I've been using as a child

593

:

and go racing, it's really good

and you can do loads with it.

594

:

and it's low carbon and all

595

:

the other things, every problem

that we were facing as a society,

596

:

this machine actually helped us fix it.

597

:

This is great.

598

:

So I got involved in advocating for it,

599

:

and then I got closer and closer

to the politics of it.

600

:

And then there's,

a regional politician, called,

601

:

Andy Burnham

in the whole Greater Manchester area.

602

:

And he said, come and come and work for me

603

:

and implement

that for this whole city region.

604

:

And I did that for 4 or 5 years.

605

:

we produced this plan

for a:

606

:

so people could drive less

if they wanted to and get to schools.

607

:

And it was a it was a fantastic job.

608

:

So it's 1.5 billion pounds,

ten year plan.

609

:

And then as the governments changed,

610

:

I'm going through quite a lot of time

er really quickly,

611

:

as the governments changed, they went,

well, you couldn't do that for England.

612

:

So I said, okay,

I won't do that for England.

613

:

And that's pretty much what I'm doing now.

614

:

So were overseeing two and a half,

3.5 billion pounds worth of investment

615

:

in infrastructure to try and get close

616

:

to what you've got in Germany.

617

:

and, that's pretty much where I am now.

618

:

it's been fascinating

in the last few years with the changes

619

:

in government

we've had have been interesting.

620

:

but yeah, I've got really exciting

projects, but far enough away.

621

:

Yeah, yeah, that's the only word we’re

allowed to use at the moment.

622

:

So tell me a little bit more about,

you know, infrastructure.

623

:

Right.

624

:

Because in the US we have very,

very little of that.

625

:

Like,

you know, some most of the roads down here

626

:

in South Carolina that I ride

on, we don't even have a shoulder.

627

:

Yeah.

628

:

So are you talking like,

you know, from from town to town

629

:

or like, you know, specific to each city?

630

:

what what actually is the definition

631

:

of infrastructure

for cyclists that you're talking about?

632

:

You've got some good stuff, actually.

633

:

You've got, Portland is sensational,

so you've got it in pockets.

634

:

So the same in the UK where you got

Cambridge and you've got Oxford

635

:

and you've got some places

where they've got 30% of

636

:

journeys are made by bike,

but that's unusual.

637

:

It's not normal and we think really small.

638

:

So we're really parochial.

639

:

We don't we don't look over there

we go. That's great.

640

:

We should do that thing.

641

:

We just think about what we do

and we drive cars here.

642

:

And it's really hard to unpack.

643

:

But the the secret is not to talk

about cycling and walking.

644

:

The secret is to talk about,

645

:

do you want your kids to be able

to get to school independently?

646

:

Yes, I do want that thing.

647

:

Okay.

648

:

what would you need?

649

:

Well, they'd have to be safe.

650

:

Okay, well, describe to me

what that looks like.

651

:

And then you have to take a whole

all the people of a region

652

:

through a journey of going,

okay, should we do that then?

653

:

Yeah, let's do that.

654

:

And it's, you know, I've just truncated

probably what is a three year

655

:

journey

to get people to see things differently.

656

:

But the outcome, everybody agrees.

657

:

Yeah.

658

:

Kids with, independence

659

:

and parents who don't have to own

three cars in a household,

660

:

they could just have two

or maybe one, to save money

661

:

and spend it on something else.

662

:

So the secret to getting more cycling

is to not talk about cycling,

663

:

to talk about all the things

that you care about, saving money and,

664

:

that we we get to do all

the other good stuff, like decarbonization

665

:

and all the things that are going

to kill the species, as well.

666

:

So it's very it's been fascinating.

667

:

It's essentially it's

a, it's a job in psychology.

668

:

It's actually not to do with tarmac

and infrastructure.

669

:

It's to do with human psychology.

670

:

And how do you get people

to want to change?

671

:

Excuse me, want to change, which is

672

:

which is quite challenging.

673

:

and I think that's

what keeps me interested in it.

674

:

It's about, it's about people

getting out of their own way.

675

:

But ultimately, Bobby,

what people need is to feel safe.

676

:

If they don't feel safe, we won't change.

677

:

just as importantly, if it's not easy,

I won't change because we're.

678

:

That's how we're built,

so it's not as easy.

679

:

was what I'm doing now. I'm not doing it.

680

:

So we have to make it easy, and we have to

make it safe or nothing changes.

681

:

So maybe give us an example

of where you go.

682

:

Oh, my God, that was so easy.

683

:

It worked. Was in a day or the other way.

684

:

Like pulling you here for like three years

and things wouldn't work.

685

:

Do you got an example

for that as well? Paris,

686

:

I think.

687

:

Paris. Is it?

688

:

So, Anne Hidalgo said, I'm

essentially going to pedestrianise Paris.

689

:

and she got death threats.

690

:

and it was horrific.

691

:

And she nearly lost her job,

within between one election and the next.

692

:

So 3 or 4 years.

693

:

she was then getting bouquets

694

:

of flowers from the same people.

695

:

So the taxi drivers were going,

are you going to kill our trade?

696

:

You're stopping us driving where we want

to go and using all of these shortcuts.

697

:

and they got incensed for fear

of losing their livelihoods.

698

:

And then when they went, oh, actually,

when people are driving cars everywhere,

699

:

they need taxis every day to go,

this is really good for us.

700

:

and so but she had to do the first bit.

701

:

and now

702

:

Paris is now one of the exemplars

for the world, not just because

703

:

of what they've done,

but how quickly they did it

704

:

in the space of 3 or 4 years,

705

:

they've actually made it

a really nice place to be.

706

:

Yeah.

707

:

When when we were riding bikes,

you probably remember that.

708

:

I can't remember the name of them.

709

:

The two roads that run down either

side of the same river.

710

:

they were just expressways for traffic.

711

:

And she went.

712

:

Actually,

that's a really nice place for people.

713

:

Why don't we let people

go there and stop the traffic?

714

:

And that was like,

oh my God, you can't do that.

715

:

And now you'd have a much bigger fight

if you tried to put it back.

716

:

And there are places

717

:

where people ride bikes and sit in cafes

and it's, you know, it's great.

718

:

And that same story

is played out in Bolton or,

719

:

I don't know, in, in Oxfordshire

or in other places

720

:

in, in the country because it's just

about human beings being scared of change.

721

:

But I think Paris is probably

one of the best examples.

722

:

and hopefully we're going to get a chance

to talk about that this summer.

723

:

In fact, I will on the, on the BBC.

724

:

Just go look at what they did.

725

:

We could have that as well.

726

:

Wow. Interesting.

727

:

Chris,

728

:

to switch gears again.

729

:

You know, we got the tour de France

coming up with the Olympics

730

:

right after that.

731

:

do you pay much attention

to the current world

732

:

of cycling

now that you're, you know, in politics?

733

:

I know you said

before we started recording

734

:

that you're riding your bike a lot,

but I'm just wondering,

735

:

you know, do

you do you pay attention to it?

736

:

What do you think of the,

the tour de France this year?

737

:

I, I pay attention to it intensely when

I'm about to have to go and work on it.

738

:

So the,

the tour de France, I had to give up,

739

:

year before

740

:

last, after 20 years,

which is a real wrench because I just,

741

:

I just couldn't fit everything in,

because I'm also the chairman of Sport

742

:

England, which, which governed

all grassroots sport in England.

743

:

I forgot that one.

744

:

So I've got a couple of jobs.

745

:

so I had to give something up.

746

:

So the tour de France had to go,

but I kept hold of the BBC work

747

:

for the Olympics, and world

championships, which I just really like.

748

:

It's great.

749

:

So I often have to cram really hard

750

:

just coming into an event

to get back up to speed.

751

:

I think.

752

:

I think what really helps, though, is the.

753

:

The, how we ride a race doesn't change.

754

:

So the technology changes

and the names change,

755

:

but how people are interacting,

that is a constant about human beings.

756

:

So I can fall back on that little

a little bit.

757

:

But, I've been watching

I've been watching this year.

758

:

I mean, the current crop and I do,

759

:

I do tune in to the racing

and I'll be watching all of the tour.

760

:

I'm actually

761

:

going to ride to Paris this year,

which I think I said

762

:

this year to do with the job.

763

:

So I'm going to ride from, Manchester

to Paris for 16 days

764

:

and watch the highlights program

for the tour in the evenings.

765

:

But it's, we've got a good crop now.

766

:

I mean, Pogacar’s obviously.

767

:

You know, the man.

768

:

and isn't it great that he seems to be

a really nice bloke as well?

769

:

I think that was,

you know, he's really nice.

770

:

and when he does interviews,

you think, oh, this this guy

771

:

is actually seems to be enjoying himself

rather than it being, like, stressed.

772

:

And it's like a war.

773

:

He's like he's he's having a bit.

774

:

It probably pisses

everybody else off of that.

775

:

But, there's some people there

that can challenge him.

776

:

But there's been so much injury

this year as well.

777

:

You've

probably got about half a dozen people

778

:

and you're not quite sure what form

they're going to be in, but but,

779

:

to fall back on that, from our experience,

the period

780

:

between the Giro d’Italia and the tour,

it's very difficult to negotiate.

781

:

Right?

782

:

It's too long to keep pushing.

783

:

It's too short to break down and rebuild.

784

:

Right.

785

:

So you've got to be smart

with your training and efforts.

786

:

I believe in between dead right?

787

:

Yeah.

788

:

But don't you

789

:

also like the fact that they've broken

the mold in the last few years?

790

:

So you know the young riders jersey.

791

:

It's almost redundant now isn't it, where

you've got a crop of riders who said,

792

:

yeah, I'm really interested

now I'll just go for the next one.

793

:

I'm sorry. They've left it behind.

794

:

I, I love that I, you go.

795

:

Yeah, we just do these one

major tours in a year.

796

:

No, I quite fancy

riding the classics, actually.

797

:

I'm going to do that as well.

798

:

so I like the fact

that people are challenging the norm.

799

:

the, I mean, the Giro

800

:

tour de France one,

that being said, is difficult

801

:

because a month in a month

and then that block in the middle,

802

:

you haven't got time to train

and come back.

803

:

You can't keep training,

you can't peak for three months.

804

:

So what do you do?

805

:

but I knew people thinking about it

in a different way.

806

:

I guess we'll find out in, next week

or other in about two weeks.

807

:

Whether Pogacar’s just like

I'm actually feeling even better.

808

:

And everyone's going. Oh, God.

809

:

Oh, you know We we couldn't deal with it

in the first place, and it's even better.

810

:

But I think Vingegaard

coming back from injury,

811

:

he's a, you know, it was a real unknown

there, he’s beat him for two years.

812

:

I think he's

only had about 14 days of racing.

813

:

So that's a real unknown,

814

:

good team around him and Roglic as well.

815

:

I mean he's got to be moving

towards his last chance.

816

:

He's in really good shape.

817

:

So there's there's lots of potential

for an upset

818

:

and that's why we like watching

it isn't it.

819

:

You know you've got this guy who’s

the favourite.

820

:

But he's not going to have it

all his own way.

821

:

Yeah I mean

822

:

it's like waiting for Christmas morning,

you know, here

823

:

we are a couple days from the start,

and Jens is going to be hanging his

824

:

hanging his knees off the back

of a motorcycle for the first time.

825

:

Oh, you do that job again. It's.

826

:

Yep. The first nine days

until the first rest day.

827

:

Yep yep yep.

828

:

Which I mean, honestly,

it adds such a cool element to the sport.

829

:

And you know, we were all on French

teams and back then it always seem

830

:

like we do this because that's

what we've done in the past.

831

:

And it got

832

:

I was frustrated and you know,

I think you were as well

833

:

that there wasn't that innovation,

but you brought in, you know, you

834

:

training with power,

you brought in aerodynamics,

835

:

you brought in a different position

with the Superman position.

836

:

You know, you did an amazing thing

when the sport really wasn't

837

:

quite ready for it.

838

:

So I'm curious to hear

839

:

with all the technical innovations

in the sport right now,

840

:

which are the ones that you look at and

say, wow, I wish I would have had that.

841

:

a wind tunnel.

842

:

I think I forgot that, actually, I built

a wind tunnel in the middle there as well.

843

:

I forgot to add that in,

but I think a wind tunnel.

844

:

You built a wind tunnel?

845

:

Yeah. Built a wind tunnel?

846

:

Yeah,

it was pretty cool, if I say so myself.

847

:

because you have a way to experiment.

848

:

And the horrible thing about wind tunnels

is they don't tell you why.

849

:

They just go better or worse.

850

:

And then you go, whoa,

what happened there?

851

:

But you've got to work it out

for yourself.

852

:

And you go back for another experiment.

Another one.

853

:

But I learned,

so I had my first experience, as you

854

:

mentioned, back in the winter of 91.

855

:

And it was, it was a wind tunnel

that they used to test trucks and things.

856

:

So it was like weighing

pigs on bathroom scales.

857

:

That was really crude.

858

:

But everything we were doing

that was so crude, it was enough to go by

859

:

God, look at the difference.

860

:

If you do this

and I had remembered that experience.

861

:

So, when I worked with the British team,

862

:

the British

Olympic team, I set up the R&D program.

863

:

Something else I forgot actually,

on the journey, the R&D program,

864

:

we were spending up to a week,

a month in wind tunnels,

865

:

just finding out new stuff.

866

:

And we brought new people in with,

867

:

different knowledge

who knew absolutely nothing about cycling.

868

:

And that's why they were amazing.

869

:

Because they went would you use.

870

:

well,

how wide are your handlebars, 42cm. Why?

871

:

because that's

the width of your shoulders.

872

:

Because you don't realize how constrained

you are by history. And.

873

:

Whoa.

874

:

Would you use 38 centimeter handlebars

and you go,

875

:

yeah, yeah, yeah, I think we do that.

876

:

And you go, how about 22cm?

877

:

No, we couldn't do that. Why not?

878

:

I don't know.

879

:

And so I went on, we brought together

these people who just thought

880

:

completely different.

881

:

and they brought

in, we can talk about it now.

882

:

it went okay.

You've got cylindrical arms.

883

:

You can't change the cylinder.

884

:

We'll just put some drip

lines down the side of it.

885

:

What do you mean? Yeah,

it's pretty standard.

886

:

We've been doing that since biplanes.

887

:

okay.

888

:

Because we looked outside the box,

somebody else.

889

:

And then we dropped

the drag of Olympic athletes

890

:

by an average of 11%, I think.

891

:

And certain people going from

first to first, it was like, amazing.

892

:

And that hasn't stopped.

893

:

It's taken over a decade

for everybody to catch up, but the vehicle

894

:

allows you to do it as a wind tunnel,

a way to understand better or worse.

895

:

And I think the big change that I can see

across the peloton

896

:

now is people have finally cottoned on to

897

:

aerodynamics.

898

:

It's like nearly everything,

because if you do your job, Bobby

899

:

and people who coach

and if you get a really good athlete

900

:

and then you coach them really well,

901

:

you'll improve their performance by 1%,

whereas you put them in a wind tunnel,

902

:

an efficiency and go, actually,

I'm going to 3%, 4%.

903

:

and that unlocked

so much wholly different way of thinking.

904

:

And now I'm watching the kids with their

handlebars and then their brake levers

905

:

turn down a little bit and thinking,

but look how long it took to get there.

906

:

And you mentioned me being an innovator.

907

:

Well, I wasn't good enough to drive it

all the way through.

908

:

If you if I'd been a tour de France winner

or if I've been a Greg LeMond,

909

:

then all of that stuff

would have proliferated really quickly.

910

:

Because that's what we do.

911

:

We follow the leader.

912

:

So it's taken. It's taken quite a while.

913

:

It's been great

to be involved in it, though.

914

:

It's quite, quite interesting.

915

:

You'd have absolutely

916

:

loved it again in the winter

and when no one had ever done it before

917

:

and just finding stuff

all the time, it was, it was great.

918

:

It was quite a

long answer that sorry about.

919

:

It it was

920

:

festering like everything you said so far.

921

:

Hey, Chris, if I understood, right,

you also,

922

:

head of sport England,

which is a big title.

923

:

And you talked about

the grassroot sports.

924

:

How do we get in all countries

of the world?

925

:

Basically,

how do we get more kids into sport or into

926

:

not only soccer or football,

927

:

whatever we call it in Grand Bretagne,

or in the US, on Germany.

928

:

How do we get more kids

motivated to do sports?

929

:

Well,

the reason I took that particular job.

930

:

So we, so it takes lottery

funding and distributes it.

931

:

So so this business gives out about 320

million a year, but only about 100

932

:

million is on sport and 200 million

is really about activity and health.

933

:

And what they worked out before

I became chair,

934

:

what they worked out was if you do this

really nice sports center

935

:

and it's really great,

and all the people over there

936

:

don't have a boss or they don't access it,

or people like me don't go there,

937

:

then it doesn't matter how shiny is,

no one's using it so that they change

938

:

the strategy to go to the local community

and go, what are you already doing?

939

:

Would you like to do more of it?

940

:

What do you like? What do you need?

941

:

And so we went down.

942

:

We met people where they were at, if you

like, and and asked them what they needed.

943

:

And we've got things like with, Muslim

cycling groups in Birmingham

944

:

or back of a gym and somewhere else,

the sorry, back of a garage.

945

:

We set up a gym

for wrestling for a particular group that,

946

:

that that becomes their hope

and it gets more and more.

947

:

I think one of the things that cycling

has got

948

:

just recently, that's really good is, BMX

949

:

and I watched

950

:

the, the imagery from the last Olympics

and I watched,

951

:

so we had one of the medallists, Kai

White and one it’s one the London clubs.

952

:

And then behind him was kids

who'd come to play,

953

:

and then their parents

had come along as well,

954

:

because that's where we have a cup of tea

and a chat and,

955

:

and you could see that

people were go into this place for,

956

:

to play, to do a few tricks, to

maybe have a go at a competition

957

:

to actually get serious about it, for it

to be my sport.

958

:

And the whole spectrum

was there in one club,

959

:

and that's what Sport England does.

960

:

We actually look for things like that

that are much more than the sport,

961

:

the sport, just the glue that holds

everything else together.

962

:

and it, it's, it's

just another fascinating

963

:

bit of what we can do in cycling

can play a big part in that really.

964

:

So sporting the bonds a lot of

965

:

cycling related

966

:

stuff because it reaches a lot of people.

967

:

But I think

ultimately you've got to make it fun

968

:

or why would I?

969

:

That's that's one of the things

970

:

that, you know,

when I see young riders coming up

971

:

and they're all so serious

because they all have all this data

972

:

at their fingertips, you know, they know

there's so much more educated and

973

:

and have so much more knowledge

than we had coming in.

974

:

But that's that's

the one thing that the one word that I use

975

:

a lot is you can do all that stuff

as long as you have fun.

976

:

And you mentioned it early, today.

977

:

Pogacar, you know,

he looks like he's having fun.

978

:

So like, you know, don't be that robot.

979

:

Be that kid that that has fun

and really enjoys it.

980

:

But I have to say, Chris, you know,

I had a couple of years working for

981

:

Sky back in the day,

and if I was up in the belly of the beast

982

:

up there in Manchester and,

you know, you walk through, it was like,

983

:

oh my gosh, I just saw a unicorn.

984

:

And then we've just had

the last 45 minutes with you face to face.

985

:

So I just want to say

thank you so much for coming on.

986

:

It was great to catch up

and wish you all the best with everything

987

:

that you're doing, and just have a nice,

safe ride down to to Paris.

988

:

You said it's going to

take you 16 days to do that

989

:

and now we'll do an eight.

990

:

The started on the 16th,

but I'm going to do it in eight days.

991

:

So I'll do some more training

around the Cairngorms.

992

:

First.

993

:

All right.

994

:

Well thank you so much

for coming on the odd tandem today.

995

:

And thank you for everything

that you've done for the sport and you're

996

:

continuing to do in your,

your country for cycling safety.

997

:

Cheers, fellas.

998

:

That's everything for this week.

999

:

Now remember to follow us at Odd Tandem

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00:50:45,375 --> 00:50:49,296

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00:50:49,296 --> 00:50:52,716

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About the Podcast

The Odd Tandem Cycling Podcast with Bobby Julich and Jens Voigt
Bobby Julich and Jens Voigt on all things cycling
Bobby Julich and Jens Voigt are back with a brand new cycling podcast. Speaking to the biggest names in the professional peloton and sharing their wisdom from their own careers.