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Published on:

28th Jun 2024

Robby Ketchell - Cycling's data pioneer

Joining Bobby and Jens this week is a genius who changed cycling as we know it with his radical approach to science. His legacy includes snub nose time trial helmets, specialist time trial suits and away from cycling - Eliud Kipchoge's sub two hour marathon.

Remember you can ask your questions for our next mailbag episode - wherever you see @oddTandem... or you can email them to us oddtandem@shockedgiraffe.com

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Transcript
Speaker:

Hello everyone, and welcome back

to another episode of The Odd Tandem.

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Yes, you know that we've changed our name

because you're listening.

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But, make sure to spread the word

to your friends that we're back Jensie.

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We are back and we try to be back

bigger and better.

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So we have more episodes, per month

with some extra features.

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We still have super interesting guests.

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We would still talk about everything

related to cycling, but

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we just try to be better

and more fascinating than we were before.

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So yes, please share the love

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and share knowledge with your friends

about The Odd Tandem Bobby.

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And yes,

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and that we are.

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We are an odd tandem

aren't we Jensie you know.

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No kidding.

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Been friends a long time

but yep, you know,

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I think you're on the front of the tandem.

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I'm on the back because, you know,

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you were always that guy in the front

going in breakaways with that game face.

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And I was always kind of crystal

cranking in the back.

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So if we ever get some pod art made,

you know, it's got to be you on the front

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with your game face and me on the back.

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Just, I don't know, reading the book or,

eating some carbohydrate hits

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in the background.

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But, anyway,

so today we have a fantastic guest.

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you may not know his name, but anyone

that's been involved in cycling and

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especially sports science, data science

for the last decade plus knows his name.

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So give a big odd tandem.

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Welcome to Robbie Ketchell.

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All right everyone special treat today

Robbie Kettle.

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Welcome to the odd tandem.

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thank you so much for having me.

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And I love the name, by the way.

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Yeah.

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Thank you very much. I mean,

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we went through quite a few names,

there's no doubt about it.

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but,

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who would you have on the back of your odd

tandem?

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Do you have anyone in your life

that, like, ends

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and I that are just totally opposite,

but it just kind of clicks for

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for you in that person?

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Oh, well,

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I obviously have my son because he's, he's

the one that actually pushes me to move.

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So, you know, otherwise

I wouldn't be on the bike.

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I probably have him with me.

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How how old is he?

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How hard can you push you

or you have to carry him around?

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Or is he, like,

is he your little turbo engine?

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He's six, but he's a superhero.

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You know?

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So he gets that he he does.

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You can fire that thing up. You know.

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Yeah.

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you move the camera a little bit,

but let's see the shirt.

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The, Oh, yeah. That's. Yeah.

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Baby.

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It, we just had a walk for a while, so.

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All right, you know Wyatt.

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Wyatt has down syndrome.

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And, my wife put on started

the first ever Seacoast

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Best Buddies friendship walk here

in, Exeter, New Hampshire.

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And so this was the second year running.

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And so Wyatt has his own team.

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It's called Wyatt's Warriors.

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well, we just have fundraising

for Best Buddies, and,

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we just got,

we just got done with that on Saturday.

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Cool, cool.

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Well, you know, to our listeners

that may not know your name,

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I mean, you are an absolute legend

in the sport of cycling.

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You kind of started the whole sports

science phase.

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so tell us in our listeners

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a little bit

about your educational background

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and how you got involved with the sport

of cycling in the first place.

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Robbie.

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oh. I actually start a little bit on my,

passion for the sport.

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So I grew up a bike racer.

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I wanted to be like you guys.

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I, started bike racing

when I was 12 years old

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because I blew out my knee

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and I couldn't do any of the fun sports

like soccer and football,

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because back then, they didn't repair

the ACL on a 12 year old.

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and my parents bought me a bike.

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and that year, when I was 12,

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my dad drove me from upstate New York

to Wichita Falls, Texas.

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I think it was like a three day

drive to go do the National

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Junior National Championships.

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And I sucked so bad

that I got dropped on the first lap.

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So my dad drove me three days

to come to this thing, and I just got

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absolutely shot out the back

of a bunch of 11 and 12 year olds.

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but from that day, I was hooked.

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And, I raced my bike until I was about,

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25 years old,

trying to trying to make it a career.

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I think I once made $500 in a year

racing my bike.

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I mean, I, I did my best,

but I it just wasn't it wasn't my thing.

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it wasn't meant to be, I guess.

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And so that was always the connection

with cycling.

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I was, computer science and, engineer.

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and had, then working, in a lab

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in, Colorado State

in, Fort Collins, and,

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there was, so I was in grad school

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there and there was, a wind tunnel,

and there was a training company,

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and two of them came together,

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and the wind tunnel had nothing to do

with cycling or sports.

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And the training company

basically wanted to

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I think it was called Colorado

Premier Training at the time.

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They wanted to do

wind tunnel testing there because

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wind tunnel testing was just starting

to become like the cool thing.

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San Diego.

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There was a wind tunnel out in San Diego.

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and, there were a bunch in Europe

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and, you know, they were creating these

cycling tests balance.

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And, and so I got to be

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part of, a team that built the software

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and the testing balance for that,

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wind tunnel in Colorado

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and Fort Collins and the same to see,

you know,

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was like the most retro

wind tunnel of all time.

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It was made out of plywood.

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It it looked like a cardboard box.

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because it wasn't

meant to be like a formula one type of

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sexy aero type of thing.

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It was used for gas dispersion modeling,

and so nobody really went in there.

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They would run the wind tunnel

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like all night

on these little tiny buildings to look at.

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Like, you know, how from health science

buildings, the fumes,

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whether they went into a sidewalk

and like things like that.

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And we built

a, a balance that went in this thing

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and the balance set off the floor

by like four feet.

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So you had to, like,

you know, rock climb yourself up

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to this thing,

and to get on the, on the testing balance.

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And it was looking back at it

like it was the least safe thing

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that you could put,

like any person on at all time.

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And the wind tunnel didn't

turn off either.

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So like in between testing,

you literally the wind, the wind's

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going 30 miles an hour, 50 K an hour,

and you would have to take a bike

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with a disc wheel out the door

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perpendicular to the wind,

you know, and hold on to this thing to go

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and, like, mount it up there.

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And long story short,

it was Slipstream Sports.

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That was, I believe it was Garmin

Slipstream at the time.

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The name of the team.

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And, they were based out of Boulder,

which was an hour south of us,

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and they booked 100 hours in the wind

tunnel that year.

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And that's how I got connected.

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back in dead days,

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my very first,

wind kind of testing was in East Germany.

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I was just 18 years old, like,

maybe a year before the wall came down

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and they used,

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this stuff.

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They made candles of paraffin. Paraffin?

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Is that the word they would, like?

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Heat it up

so it would become smoke and dead.

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Yeah.

It's like a boil based. It's an oil base.

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Yeah, right. Except you

you did the same thing.

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So you could, like, visually visualize

the air flow, it seems.

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Yes, yes, we did it.

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Except for the things that we had were,

they used that all the time for the gas

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dispersion model, because that's

what they would do to simulate the flow.

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They would take videos of like flow

coming out of exhaust from buildings

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and these buildings.

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By the way, there were a couple inches

tall type of thing.

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And they would, and

so you would look at the flow over there.

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And so we had these

like retrofitted things that were meant

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for the gas dispersion modeling,

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and we would put it over to the cyclists,

and you could see the flow over.

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And, you know, most of the time

we would like, run out of things

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to test with people. So we would be like,

look at the smoke.

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We could put it around and show

you like how it is and try to educate.

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you know,

how how the how aerodynamics where it.

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Yeah. Okay.

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So that was one of the things that I had

on my list, but you're kind of responsible

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or maybe fully responsible

for quite a few other innovations.

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And I had to lean on Christian Vande

Velde our Buddy Christian,

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and, he kind of went down a list.

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what other products or technology

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did you help

kind of bring into the world of cycling?

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that is pretty, pretty standard.

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Now, I have two that I know of the,

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the helmet, the Giro helmet that you made

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evidently pulled an all nighter

at training camp and, like, filed down

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the longtail to be like, oh,

the only Christian knows, story that's.

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Look, that is now,

you know, pretty much a norm.

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And, the old famous, what was it called?

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The bat suit or the squirrel suit?

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The time trial suit?

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Yeah.

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Tell us how you came up with these ideas.

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I mean,

it was over a decade and a half ago,

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but you were kind of,

like, on the right track, where now it's.

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It's just the norm.

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Yeah, it's funny,

I forgot about that story with Christian.

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So just to give a little bit

of background to this, so when I started

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working in the wind tunnel,

this is before I was hired, by the team,

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we were working with the team,

but they were working.

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They came to our wind tunnel and,

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I basically had free rein to go in

and run

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the wind tunnel

in the middle of the night,

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because remember

what kept the lights on it?

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That wind tunnel was doing all this

gas dispersion modeling.

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And so doing the cycling testing

was kind of an inconvenience to them,

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because they would have to change out

the balances and everything.

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And so it was like

it I'd have a key to the door.

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It was like 5:00 that the normal staff

would leave for the day.

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And I would go in to this warehouse

and I would have to turn the big breaker,

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switch down and turn on the turn on the

fan, and like, the wind would come up and,

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and I would be able

to study things in there.

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And I had like foam

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that I would sand down

with like sandpaper.

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I had like these foam cutters

that's like this hot wire.

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And I would cut like different shapes.

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And I was making things like,

that went, at the bottom of, the shoes,

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that went around the,

the cleats and like, the, the pedals.

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I was testing, like, different helmet,

shapes and stuff like that.

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And so I had

I was fortunate to have, like, a resource

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where I had endless amount of time

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in the middle of the night, like,

I could go all the way until 9 a.m.

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if I wanted to, with just running the wind

tunnel and testing things.

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And by the way, there was a lot of foam

that just kind of flew back into the sand

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because a lot of stuff

got lost during that time.

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but it was at a training camp

with Christian,

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I think, Christian had broken

his collarbone, in the Giro that year.

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We were trying to get him ready for it.

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So I fast forward.

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I was hired by the team away

from the wind tunnel.

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And this is like the first training camp

that I ever went to.

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So the team, like all the resources

were at the Giro still,

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and they were like, okay,

we need to put, Christian at altitude or,

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you know, somewhere where he can recover,

but also kind of get back into the swing

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of things and like,

hey, Robbie do you want to go,

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you know, drive the car behind them

and, like, support him and do things.

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And so I had so much time to watch

Christian ride his bike

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and, you know, see him in his TT position

and just be like, hey, we should

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we should be doing some narrow stuff

while we're here.

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And so I took his TT helmet.

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I went to the warehouse, the,

like, hardware

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store and, bought a hacksaw.

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got some of, I think

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it's called Fapose foam over in Spain.

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And,

cut off the tail of his TT helmet and,

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you know, sanded down, the, the,

it put on a glued on this big foam

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block and descended it down,

just like Arts and Craft project.

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And he would go ride the next day in that,

and he'd be like, how do I look?

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You know, and I just get some feedback.

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And that's how that kind of

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t helmet kind of came, came to place,

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it was that year

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that we were Pearl Izumi was a sponsor,

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and there was an intern at Pearl Izumi.

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They used to come up

and spend time in the wind

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tunnel with me in the middle of the night,

and we were trying to design a,

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new speed suit for the tour,

that we could do.

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And we went pretty overboard

with the wings underneath the,

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the armpits that year, to so much

that it kind of restricted

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the guys from putting their arms out

in certain positions.

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I think there's a picture of,

Ryder Hesjedal where

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his not really in his position

because he was, over 40 K.

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It was like pulling it

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back, quite a bit, but, yeah, that's,

that's how that's how those came about.

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So, there

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for, for my understanding

and our listeners and viewers,

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at the start, you said you were into

a data analyzes and computers.

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How did you make the transition to become

an aerodynamics expert, self-teaching.

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Or you did more studies, to cover

debt base

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or how how did you change from

being in an office at the computer

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to the wind tunnel and be, like, doing

practical work out there in the field?

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Yeah. Great question.

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I mean, obviously

aerodynamics was cycling

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was something that I knew a lot about

because I was a cyclist.

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Right.

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And we're all aware

of the effect of aerodynamics.

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I had studied fluid dynamics, in, in,

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in college and, and, and gone

through the engineering courses for that.

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those subjects, however,

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had never done wind tunnel testing,

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until we had built that, that when,

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when tunnel testing balance in Colorado

and it was

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I would say through hundreds of hours

of, of

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just kind of being able

to study aerodynamics

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as it relates to a cyclist, that it became

kind of a specialty, for me.

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and, you know, it became a lab.

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It became like,

you know, a lot of times the scientists

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like you go to a new lab and you're

studying in new concepts and stuff,

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and the same scientific principles

apply in the sense that you need to set up

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your your, your different tests

that you're going to do.

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How are you going to test?

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and then you, you know,

back into the science around that.

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and keep in mind that aerodynamics

is a pretty heavy computational, field.

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there is, computational fluid

dynamics has been around,

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and that's what we used in, you know,

the marathon project more recently?

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completely.

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We we barely did any wind tunnel testing,

and that's all computer simulation.

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And, and that's kind of

what I'm working on now,

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are some alternatives to aero testing,

because

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keep in mind, like wind tunnel testing,

as you guys know, is not, is not it's

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a big inconvenience to bring an athlete

to a wind tunnel, especially when you're

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trying to do altitude camps and you're

trying to do all kinds of other things.

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And that's what led to the bat box.

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Bobby, I don't know

if that was on the list by Christian.

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but I built, hand soldered together,

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dynamic pressure sensors

that were like pedal tubes, essentially

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that, where, on a circuit board

where the microprocessor

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there that measured the wind speed

and wind direction on a bike.

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So these things didn't exist.

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You see, these sensors are out there now.

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And this was back in 20 2012.

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I believe that it created the bat box

and the bat box, set on a bike.

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And the reason that I created that

created it for guys like Christian and,

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and David Millar

and all the guys on the slipstream team

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at the time, because it was so hard

to get them to a wind tunnel.

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And the reason I bring

that up, Jens, is because,

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you know, the wind tunnel

and the aerodynamics

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is one thing around it, but it's there's

so many challenges to being able

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to kind of study that on, on a cyclist

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and have it applied to specifically,

you know, our, our sport.

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In the period that you were

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starting to think like this

and you were coming up

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with these amazing ideas, a lot of

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it had to have been

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trial and error.

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Oh, yeah.

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so, you know,

we've talked about some things that are,

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you know, entrenched in, in cycling now,

but what are some of those things,

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maybe those projects that didn't quite

get off the ground

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that you were working on way back then?

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There had to have been some crazy idea

that you had that.

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Yeah,

I had gotten into the professional teams

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through being an expert in aerodynamics.

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However, because it was

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so logistically challenging

to do aerodynamic testing,

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there was so much limited time

that we actually did the aero testing.

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So I had to apply other things in life

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things around biomechanics,

things around physiology, things around

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nutrition and stuff, and kind of,

you know, be a sports scientist.

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and data science was, data scientist

was not even really a term at that time.

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Right.

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And, I was really keen on,

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being able to come up with some,

analytics platforms,

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and nobody was really doing

true analytics.

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And I wasn't even like something

that you heard.

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And I created a software application

called platypus

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and platypus was to, as far as I know,

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the first AI system that any pro team

used in the in the peloton.

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And this,

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this, application,

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was essentially

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I had to solve for the fact

that when you're like team Sky

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or your CSC, like when you guys

had the yellow jersey in the tour,

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like you always had the front most cover

position, right?

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And like you, you knew more

what was going on in the race,

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especially back

then when radio communication.

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I don't even know

if it's any better today,

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but like, it's always a problem, right?

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It's always a problem.

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The caravan

and but if you're like 20th car,

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like 15th car,

you have no idea what's going on.

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Like you really have no idea

what's going on because you,

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you you,

you're not in the race a lot of times.

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Like, I had the luxury of being able

to drive the car every once in a while

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in smaller races.

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Sometimes you just kind of go up there

like, oh,

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I thought they thought we had a rider back

here, you know,

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just because you're bored.

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and what,

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what I did was, I created this

application that was, gathering source

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that Twitter, was starting to be,

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become really popular, at this time.

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And I created this application

that was scraping Twitter data.

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And we basically would,

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gather all the information

that was mentioned about our riders.

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And then I would take it and I had this

truth like validity algorithm around it,

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and it would basically try

to indicate an and, an appropriate time,

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like, hey,

did we have a rider that flatted,

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so that they could hear it before or hey,

do we have riders that are

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hanging at the back of the peloton

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and don't look like

at the bottom of a climb,

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like they're starting to sag

or something like that?

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And, it gave the, the directors.

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Charly Wegelius

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was the one that was using it at the time,

gave them more information,

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and it didn't completely remove the,

the radio, but it was supplemental.

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But the challenge was

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the connectivity of the service,

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like, for Wi-Fi and cellular networks

were such a challenge

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that there was limited time

that I could send information to them.

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And so I would have, like, preprogramed

like information

385

:

that would, be,

so I would only send like a signal of,

386

:

like the number one,

and that would tell them rider at the back

387

:

or that would tell them, like,

388

:

you know, we're all at the front or

something like that, because the smaller

389

:

the data packet, the easier

it was to send it to them at the time.

390

:

And so we had to we had to.

391

:

So now you have things like Starlink and

like all these different like satellite,

392

:

internet, services

393

:

that would probably make an application

like that super useful.

394

:

but that's something that like we tried

395

:

and was hard to not really take it.

396

:

And, and the riders got pretty frustrated,

I think, because I was

397

:

I was driving ahead of the race

to go to the hotel

398

:

where I could watch the TV too,

by the way, and be able

399

:

to also add information into

this and send it to them.

400

:

but instead of being on

the side of the road, like handing bottles

401

:

or like doing something

that was like more urgent,

402

:

maybe like that they, so

and so it didn't take off.

403

:

And I think, it, in today's age,

they have more of an opportunity.

404

:

But the,

cellular networks were the limiter there.

405

:

another example of something

that was a success

406

:

but almost wasn't a success.

407

:

if you look at those,

those stubby helmets that came out

408

:

and, it was 2011 that we introduced them,

409

:

we had put a big focus on,

trying to win the team time trial to tour.

410

:

We were like, we had never won

a stage in the tour with slipstream.

411

:

And we were like,

all right, team time trial.

412

:

Like nobody focuses on the team time

trial.

413

:

Let's go win that.

414

:

And we didn't take Johan Vansummeren.

415

:

And he had won Paris-Roubaix

to the tour that year.

416

:

And that was kind of

that was a pretty big deal

417

:

that we didn't make that decision,

you know, and we had taken,

418

:

it was we had taken some young riders

419

:

that, were kind of, people that even

the media was like, really?

420

:

This is going to be the team

we had to push off.

421

:

we had Christian, we had David Millar,

we had Dave Zabriskie.

422

:

So we had like a

pretty like, top hitter team, you know,

423

:

and we, so we bring these helmets there.

424

:

We had never used them yet, because

we're trying to keep them kind of secret.

425

:

And we,

426

:

I laugh about this

because now the ability to create, like,

427

:

prototypes is so much greater than it was

in:

428

:

But, like, we bring this to, the race,

429

:

and they had never really worn them

before, which is always a mistake.

430

:

Right.

431

:

But we also we're kind of up against

a timeline to, to bring them there.

432

:

And we put them on the riders to go

433

:

do like the, the pre ride the course.

434

:

Christian comes back to me

and he throws a helmet at me

435

:

and he goes, that helmet sucks.

I can't wear it like it.

436

:

The shell came disconnected from like the

the protective layer inside.

437

:

It was like going over his eyes

and he couldn't see.

438

:

And he goes,

just give me the other helmet.

439

:

for for the team time trial.

440

:

And, you know, keep in mind

this is like an hour,

441

:

hour and a half until, start time.

442

:

And, and I looked at him on the side.

443

:

And, he didn't know,

but we had sent the old helmets

444

:

back to the service course that morning,

so the old helmets weren't there.

445

:

Right?

446

:

So I go I go into the truck

and I don't tell them this

447

:

because I'm like,

I gotta go find a solution, right?

448

:

I can't go with them to him

with the problem.

449

:

And he's at this point, he's on them.

450

:

He's on the trainer,

like warming up with the rest of the team.

451

:

And he's in.

452

:

He's seen me walk by like a million times

and he's like, you got the other helmet?

453

:

And I'm like, And so I, I like

454

:

go into the truck, the mechanics truck,

they get some superglue.

455

:

Right.

And I'm trying to glue this thing on.

456

:

And then it's me and one of the,

this one years.

457

:

They're trying to like you know, hand

drive the thing.

458

:

Couldn't even find a fan.

459

:

And we're like, okay, cool.

460

:

We gotta go show them that we fixed it.

461

:

So we go to give it to them,

462

:

super glue and dry it.

463

:

So he puts it on, his eyes burn, and he's

just like crying inside this helmet.

464

:

He takes it off and now he's getting

a little irritated for for good.

465

:

For good reason. Right.

466

:

And and so he's like,

give me the old helmet.

467

:

And I'm like, So I go into the truck

and I'm like, okay, last chance.

468

:

He was a small helmet and we had a medium,

469

:

and I bring him the medium and I'm like,

hey, try this on.

470

:

This is probably a good idea.

471

:

And he puts it on.

472

:

He's like, oh yeah, I guess I'm a medium.

473

:

And that was like five minutes

before the start.

474

:

And they like roll off to the

to go to the start.

475

:

And I was driving third car that day.

476

:

So the team time trial

you can have three cars right.

477

:

At least used to be I don't know anymore.

478

:

But and we had had the plan

that Julian Dean

479

:

was going to pull off

after the first kilometer.

480

:

that was just like the game plan.

481

:

Like he was just going to go hard

right out of the gate,

482

:

and he was going to pull off

and just drop, drop off.

483

:

It was a short time trial

thinking about like 20 K or something.

484

:

So like there was no issue

with the time limits.

485

:

So he pulls off in the third car.

486

:

That means that like I just follow Julian.

487

:

And so I have no idea

what's going on. The race.

488

:

I think I messed everything up

with Christian.

489

:

Like we put everything

into the whole season for this

490

:

and I have no radio contact.

491

:

I'm so far away from everybody

that I'm like,

492

:

I have no connectivity to anything,

so I don't know how we're doing.

493

:

I get, we get back,

I park the car, Christian pulls up to me

494

:

before I even get out of the car,

and he goes, never do that to me again.

495

:

It's like, you don't really know

what happened there, but I got it right.

496

:

It, so I get out

and see that we're winning, and,

497

:

we had to wait for, Sky to, to finish.

498

:

I think they were last off

or close to last off.

499

:

And we had beaten by one second

to win the team time trial.

500

:

And that was the team's first,

stage win in the tour.

501

:

Wow. That is pretty dramatic, right?

502

:

You couldn't

write a script more exciting than that.

503

:

That's really awesome.

504

:

So now that you talked

about all these ideas and how cycling

505

:

has changed in terms of aerodynamics,

for example, do you

506

:

where or how do you see the next

big jump or development?

507

:

I mean, for the last let's

say 5 to 8 years, maybe it was nutrition.

508

:

So what would be

the next field of development?

509

:

Tires maturing after tire again?

510

:

dynamics, the weight of the bikes,

the shape of the frames or

511

:

where can we go further and faster now?

512

:

Yeah.

513

:

You know, I truly believe that.

514

:

It's like the circle of life that as you

push one field, like nutrition,

515

:

it actually opens up areas with training

516

:

or opens up areas with bike position

and things that you didn't realize before.

517

:

And then it starts

circling back to the thing.

518

:

Oh, hey, we weren't actually doing that

the most optimal way.

519

:

I think training science with,

AI and analytics has has really big,

520

:

opportunity.

521

:

I don't think anybody's

truly doing it yet.

522

:

the platform, it's so hard to build a

platform to do it right, to provide value.

523

:

I think that, analytics,

advanced analytics with,

524

:

AI in all kinds of different fields

aerodynamics, training, nutrition,

525

:

you know, recovery,

526

:

like all that's

just going to start to really boom.

527

:

the equipment is so interesting

because it has to follow the,

528

:

the ceiling that the UCI gives it

from the regulations.

529

:

And that's changed so much. Right?

530

:

I mean, you look at how advanced

the bikes were back in:

531

:

and now that it's like

we went back in time for a number of years

532

:

with the way that the frames

look with the geometry and,

533

:

you look at like Bjarne Riis's bike,

right?

534

:

When, when he won the tour with that

535

:

Pinarello like,

that was really, really advanced stuff.

536

:

And, and now you see,

with the handlebar positions, like,

537

:

what's kind of coming from that

now that they're able

538

:

to have them at a specific angle.

539

:

And they weren't allowed to do that for,

for a number of years.

540

:

and so position is always going to evolve

because of that stuff.

541

:

the things that people don't

think about, like,

542

:

all the bearing frictions

and the different technology

543

:

that come out with that stuff

and how much of an impact

544

:

that really has over time

for, for, special pro cyclists.

545

:

so it doesn't really answer your question,

546

:

but I just think that it's going

to be discontinued to, to cycle through,

547

:

like all these different fields

and there'll be continuous, innovation.

548

:

So basically, you

549

:

see, we developed this just pulls up

550

:

and we focus on that, that pulls up

a third part, we focus back on that.

551

:

So it builds on top of each other.

552

:

Yeah exactly.

553

:

Yeah it does.

554

:

Yep I see I see.

555

:

And a lot of times

we think that like we're doing something

556

:

completely right

557

:

and we can't

558

:

can't get more advanced with training or

we can't get more advanced with nutrition.

559

:

But then we're like,

oh, wait, we've been doing it all wrong.

560

:

And something that we've done

in a different fuel kind of unlocks at.

561

:

Not very often

do we have someone like you,

562

:

who's always the smartest guy

in the room on our podcast.

563

:

So I want to pick your brain a little bit

about thermal regulation, about ice baths

564

:

recovery and heat acclimation

because again,

565

:

you, you know, Christian told me that

566

:

you guys were thinking about that

sort of stuff way back in the day.

567

:

So kind of

from when you started to where it is now.

568

:

What is your opinion of

of those two things in particular?

569

:

Yeah, yeah, I had a pretty it was a pretty

hot topic for a number of years.

570

:

Allen Lim, who has,

571

:

basically

had my job before me at slipstream,

572

:

he, he started, pushing

573

:

pretty heavily on that,

and with things like the ice fast,

574

:

and when I got to the team,

we were still considering,

575

:

different ways for thermal regulation,

especially for recovery.

576

:

However, just like any field,

like you find something that advances it,

577

:

like the ice fast, and you realize

how inconvenient the ice fast is and how,

578

:

like, hard it is to like, truly prepare,

especially when you have team time trials

579

:

and you got to have like eight ice baths

for people, right, for the entire team.

580

:

And, we, we looked into,

581

:

just, ice gloves or using slushies,

582

:

which is probably the most effective way

for cooling core body temperature.

583

:

because you actually lose most of the,

584

:

the heat and the energy

through, through your urine.

585

:

when it leaves your body and,

however, there were challenges with that

586

:

because when we put a slushy

machine in the, in the bus,

587

:

the bus heated

588

:

up because it was so hot

from running that thing inside the bus.

589

:

but we literally had, like,

a slushy machine that you would see,

590

:

unlike,

with an ice cream truck or something.

591

:

that was, that was on, on the bus.

592

:

And it was so hard to resource that,

that we only had like, one good one.

593

:

And so there was never one

on the second bus.

594

:

And stuff like that, all things that you

just think would be so easy to achieve.

595

:

And maybe in today's age, like there's,

you know, more ways to resource things.

596

:

but then we,

we started, freezing tights, when,

597

:

when Ryder won, Ryder Hesjedal won the,

598

:

Giro 2012, we were doing ice tights.

599

:

And so when he came on the bus

after a stage,

600

:

we would have, like,

leg warmers and arm warmers

601

:

that had been soaked in water

and then put it in a freezer.

602

:

And he would immediately

put that, on his legs and,

603

:

and it stripped down

and put all the stuff,

604

:

and it would lower his core body temperature and it would accelerate the recovery.

605

:

you know,

that's the recovery piece of it.

606

:

and it really, you know, he was somebody

that adopted that technology, too.

607

:

Like, it really takes a special individual

608

:

to have that commitment that after,

you know, you're absolutely cooked,

609

:

you're getting on the bus,

you're hungry, media wants to talk to you

610

:

and you're like, no, I gotta go

put my ice tights on for for five minutes.

611

:

And the, and he really committed

to that, that year.

612

:

Now, the,

613

:

in terms of,

like, thermoregulation, like,

614

:

we're getting a little bit outside,

a cycling, but,

615

:

you don't realize when you're drafting

like, it, it really affects

616

:

your thermoregulation because you don't

have the wind over you to cool you.

617

:

Right.

618

:

And there's a really there's a, there's

619

:

there's a lot to be said

about the position that you ride

620

:

and the clothing that you wear and,

how your body cools.

621

:

You look at, Pogacar.

622

:

during the Giro, he saw climbing.

623

:

He had tights on.

624

:

He had leg warmers on. Right.

625

:

And he, didn't have anything in his arms.

626

:

And he had something over his, his, neck.

627

:

And that's the way

his body cools effectively.

628

:

Right?

629

:

He was able to regulate is temperature

really effectively

630

:

at like, high intensities

with those colder temperatures.

631

:

By dressing like that,

I don't think we dress appropriately.

632

:

I think he's really on to something there.

633

:

And, a lot of times you see people

wearing arm warmers, not wearing

634

:

leg warmers the other way around,

but the legs are

635

:

the ones that are propelling

you up the mountain.

636

:

Right.

637

:

And, and so you have to

you have to manage, like, not just,

638

:

when you say core body temperature,

but you need, you need to address, like,

639

:

you know, the,

the different, muscles in the,

640

:

you know, the legs versus the arms

and the entire body in the face, like

641

:

how and how that effectively cools you.

642

:

and the the

643

:

thing that I wanted to bring up was,

when we did the 159 project,

644

:

in Vienna with Eliud Kipchoge

645

:

for the sub two hour marathon.

646

:

well, we didn't realize

647

:

we had created this,

648

:

like, incredible pacing formation

where it really it literally created

649

:

aerodynamic lift for him

when he was running,

650

:

when he was running behind these, runners

in front of him.

651

:

And so it was

it was sucking him along, essentially.

652

:

And what we didn't realize

so is that affected his ability to cool.

653

:

And we had to because we didn't

get the start time that we wanted

654

:

because they wanted to have when we're

going to have crowds and everything.

655

:

And we wanted to start at 5 a.m.

when it was going to be cooler,

656

:

we had to tell him

657

:

to use it as a tool

so that if he was overheating,

658

:

to get out of the pocket

of where he was running

659

:

so that he could, you know, maintain

his core body temperature.

660

:

And so drafting is a big, like a big thing

about,

661

:

regulating your, your temperature.

662

:

And of times you can't choose like,

if you're, if you're just holding on

663

:

for your life on the peloton and you're

drafting like you're going to draft,

664

:

but you may not understand that, like, I'm

actually overheating and I need more

665

:

wind on me or,

you know, something to be able

666

:

to manage that effort.

667

:

yeah, I think I lost a little bit

of what the question was,

668

:

but there's, there's lots of ways

to thermoregulation for sure.

669

:

I actually believe Formula

One cars have the same problem.

670

:

They keep getting told,

go out of the slipstream, get cold air

671

:

and go back in a slipstream

672

:

because the engine just exactly

as you said, the engines are overheating.

673

:

so now I have a question for you as well.

674

:

Also coming from formula one

675

:

and Formula

one decode basically was all the data

676

:

collected from their own team

and what they know about other teams.

677

:

They can say okay.

678

:

Yes, I believe his tires

going to last three and a half more laps,

679

:

and then he's going to do

refilling for 7.8 seconds.

680

:

We is a push now or stop now.

681

:

So now in cycling, do you believe

682

:

sophisticated or teams was a bigger budget

and having resources.

683

:

Do you have a computer program

like for example, Pogacar, his team,

684

:

do they have a computer program

that says, okay,

685

:

Jonas

Vingegaard can push 431W for 18.7 minutes

686

:

if we can hold the same wattage

for 19 minutes, we beat him.

687

:

You think we are down to that? That you.

688

:

No. Precisely.

689

:

Looking at the other rider,

his body weight, his position,

690

:

the energy output,

how he can beat him, in theory at least.

691

:

Do you think we have programs like that

in cycling in:

692

:

So right after the 1:59

I went back to working for teams.

693

:

what was Ineos Grenadiers then?

694

:

we created

695

:

software that was called

Competitor Awareness.

696

:

And we essentially we're trying

to get to that.

697

:

The challenge

is that you don't have the actual

698

:

formula

one that data is is more commonly shared.

699

:

so like the metrics on the engines

and like things like that

700

:

cycling,

it's really hard to get power data.

701

:

It's kind of it's becoming

like a little bit more commonplace.

702

:

So you have some data,

but you don't have like years

703

:

of training data

and some of it's on Strava.

704

:

We were scraping Strava data.

705

:

We were doing all kinds of stuff

on like the riders.

706

:

But then I wrote, code

that essentially was,

707

:

determining the watts

708

:

per kilogram for a rider going uphill,

for all the, competitors.

709

:

Because if you

710

:

going uphill is easier to try to calculate

711

:

because drafting has less than a fact,

because you're going at slower speeds.

712

:

And if you know where they're starting

from the video like of the race,

713

:

and you know what the pitch of the road

is because your riders actually

714

:

went on the same road, right?

715

:

So you actually have that GPS data,

or you had the

716

:

the data before you even went to the race,

and you had a rough estimate

717

:

of what the rider's weight is.

718

:

Then you can determine what the watts

per kilogram is,

719

:

because you can calculate it from that,

and then you can determine way over

720

:

what distances they can do that

on what pitches, they can do that, etc..

721

:

So I think that there are ways to come up

with kind of niche metrics,

722

:

but holistically

you're still kind of like,

723

:

not able to get all the data,

from specific riders.

724

:

Now, keep in mind, like riders change

teams though, exactly what have you.

725

:

My next question. Yes. Yeah. And ethically

726

:

that data belongs

727

:

to that with GDPR laws and everything.

728

:

That data belongs to the rider.

729

:

And however

you've developed models off of that rider.

730

:

And so like you have like

some pretty abstract things that,

731

:

you know

now like you've learned about that rider.

732

:

And so, you know,

you look at, Richard Carepaz

733

:

and you know, that was at Sky and then,

734

:

you know, went to EF

and they know everything about him,

735

:

you know, they know so much about him,

and not just

736

:

from what his power numbers are and stuff,

737

:

but they know how he performs in the cold,

even without having numbers on it.

738

:

They just know from experience, like,

739

:

oh, this is the type of climb

that he won't perform

740

:

well in, or this is this type of finish

that he's really going to perform well.

741

:

And because it's punchy

and he has a good sprint,

742

:

you know, things like that,

and you learn, a lot.

743

:

I have to say that,

like, cycling is unique in the sense that

744

:

everybody like,

745

:

thinks that it's so scientific.

746

:

There's so much art to it still.

747

:

Yeah, there's so much I mean, the,

748

:

the directors are so knowledgeable,

749

:

you know, they're bike

racers have done it for 20 years.

750

:

You know, they've known, like most guys

in the peloton, they still know of raced

751

:

with like, you can't you

you can supplement that.

752

:

But that knowledge is so, so important,

you know.

753

:

And that's why, you know,

a computer doesn't direct a race.

754

:

the director still does.

755

:

And it's why I, I will not take a software

engineers job.

756

:

Right. Because there's still the ability

757

:

you still have to be able

to direct the tools.

758

:

And so I think,

759

:

we get lost in the fact that we think

that, like, technology is free.

760

:

These guys have these, you know,

helmets on that, looks like spaceships.

761

:

with these bike that came out,

those Giro helmets this year and like,

762

:

they, these. Why?

763

:

What now? We're going to have windshields

in front of the bike and everything.

764

:

Everybody makes all these comments,

but they don't realize that

765

:

when you have a specialized tool like

that, you also need to use it effectively.

766

:

And those riders, like the engineers,

spent years developing it.

767

:

And then the riders,

768

:

are they have to learn how to use it

effectively.

769

:

I watch them riding them like they're

they're not using it.

770

:

Right. Like they're going to and they're

going to get big gains out of it.

771

:

But their heads up like half the time

because they're trying to use a helmet

772

:

that's specific for going fast

and then aero position at high speeds.

773

:

And they're using it on a Prologue course

that has 50 turns in it.

774

:

And they got to look up, you know.

775

:

And so it's like it's it's it's

hard to apply, the analytics that you're

776

:

talking about with like the competitor

awareness, like all that stuff.

777

:

There's so much art in it still,

778

:

man, I'm glad that you said that because,

779

:

you know, I look back at,

780

:

the data science that we had back when

we were racing and I wish we had more,

781

:

but then I'm looking at all

the data points

782

:

that are available to guys

and gals out there now.

783

:

And I kind of feel sorry for them

that there's so many data streams

784

:

that they have to think about,

because what you just said is, is spot on.

785

:

the the riders have to learn

how to use it and use it correctly.

786

:

And that takes a specific type of rider,

787

:

like you mentioned before, somebody

that's very open to that.

788

:

And if you're just piling this

on these younger

789

:

and younger pros because let's face it,

they're coming into the peloton

790

:

at 18 now and expected to be winning

pretty much right away.

791

:

You know, this gives such

like a neural load to these poor kids

792

:

that there's so many things

that they have to think about that

793

:

it just makes me a little bit nervous

that that

794

:

that artistic side

that you also mentioned, you know, that

795

:

that tactical side that, that, you know,

796

:

put it all on the line

side is going to be affected by,

797

:

by some of this data

because, you know, a rider,

798

:

you know,

certain riders are racers, right?

799

:

Like they go when they feel like going.

800

:

And we've seen that a lot with.

801

:

Yeah.

802

:

Philippe Gilbert

was one of the best examples of that.

803

:

today

Pogacar is is obviously a prime example.

804

:

but like if you're having that artistic

805

:

tactical flow being overridden

by a person in the car saying, oh,

806

:

this sensor says this

or this calculation says this, or it

807

:

is it taking the fun out of,

808

:

of our sport a little bit.

809

:

Yeah.

810

:

I mean, to be honest,

I think it makes it more exciting.

811

:

I think that we

812

:

continue to perfect our craft

813

:

by having these tools that are available.

814

:

And some of the tools also keep in mind,

make the sport safer, right?

815

:

Or have the potential

to make the sport safer.

816

:

and listen, I'm biased

817

:

because I'm on the data guy

and I want to continue

818

:

to innovate in the sport

and and see more of this stuff.

819

:

be developed.

820

:

But to me, it makes it more exciting

because there's there's more things

821

:

to talk about.

822

:

There's more things that the general

cyclist can, can connect with.

823

:

Because if they're if they're seeing data

talked about about,

824

:

say, aerodynamics or power to drag

or things like that,

825

:

there's an opportunity

for them to go and experience it,

826

:

you know, and there's,

because if it was just, about,

827

:

riding the tour de France, like,

they're not they're never going

828

:

to experience that unless, you know,

maybe they could go ride some of the,

829

:

some of the finishing climbs

and, and circuits and stuff like that.

830

:

But it's, it kind of to me, it adds

another level of excitement.

831

:

But keep in mind that there will always

should be

832

:

some art around it

and how you use those tools.

833

:

just like any, any,

834

:

any profession really.

835

:

so, no, we talked about too much science

836

:

in cycling, but you were also,

a part in a very scientific project

837

:

in, what track and field

are running the 1.59 project?

838

:

so you were part of a team

that, broke the two hour,

839

:

timeline, right?

840

:

And, but just for our viewers

to understand better,

841

:

in order to run a marathon in two hours

or less, that's 21.

842

:

Isn't our average?

843

:

Honestly, Bobby and me,

we struggled to keep that on a bike.

844

:

Average. Right, Bobby? 21.

845

:

You, us average for two hours.

846

:

I got gotta work hard to make it

so let's fill us in a little bit.

847

:

okay.

848

:

Did the three we're able to run a 2:05 a

2:04 beforehand, but what did you change?

849

:

How did you make it run

just a little bit faster.

850

:

Yeah.

851

:

So the previous

so the the world record was:

852

:

and Eliud Kipchoge

who is the runner who went under two.

853

:

he held that record.

854

:

And this the first attempt was in 2017.

855

:

Nike had decided to go for,

it was it's always been

856

:

a benchmark that people have been trying

to achieve, like the four minute mile.

857

:

And, when,

858

:

so Nike

859

:

decided to put together a project

in:

860

:

I was really fortunate to get invited

to be a part of that project.

861

:

There was five of us of the core

kind of scientists and engineers that,

862

:

that got to, to work on that.

863

:

we put together, like,

where are we going to do in the world?

864

:

what should the course look like?

865

:

What should the weather conditions be?

866

:

How what should the patient strategy be?

867

:

how can we run off of,

you know, with other pacers

868

:

and runners to help

with aerodynamics and drag the clothing?

869

:

Should they wear? She. Should they wear.

870

:

What's the nutrition

871

:

and all that same type of things

that you try to optimize for a bike race

872

:

only we got to choose

the location, the time. And

873

:

the location

874

:

at the time, that we wanted to do it.

875

:

So in 2017, we missed, it by 26 seconds.

876

:

So he finished.

877

:

Eliud finished

in, two hours and 25 seconds.

878

:

I never thought I was going to be part

of a project again.

879

:

like that

880

:

2019 rolls around.

881

:

I had left the sport of cycling

and running completely.

882

:

I was working on autonomous vehicles.

883

:

I never thought I was going to be back,

working on anything.

884

:

And, and endurance sports

885

:

and, I'm in the I'm in the nick.

886

:

You because there's sons born

is there for 67 days

887

:

and I'm just texting back and forth

with Dave Brailsford

888

:

because I'm like, trying

to trying to find an outlet there.

889

:

And like, I think the tour was

or nos during the Giro or something.

890

:

And we were talking about

I think it was with Froome when Froome,

891

:

won that that year and so long

892

:

story short,

the sky was going out as a sponsor

893

:

and they were looking for somebody

to buy the team.

894

:

David found somebody buy the team.

895

:

But it was Ineos with Jim Ratcliffe.

896

:

And Jim said, hey, I'll,

well buy the team.

897

:

But he also has to do this

running project.

898

:

Dave's like, yeah, sure,

but knew nothing about running.

899

:

So naturally

I was the only person that he knew that

900

:

was involved in anything like that was

is the exact same project, to be honest.

901

:

and he's like, Robbie, can you do this?

902

:

And I was like, absolutely.

903

:

If we go and, the

my involvement in the 159 challenge,

904

:

which was under different sponsorship

905

:

and leadership, then the breaking two

and Nike completely separate,

906

:

was completely different.

907

:

I was I was working on aerodynamics

908

:

in the weather for braking 2 in 2017.

909

:

I had to work on all the projects in 2019.

910

:

So I got to design the course,

got to choose the location,

911

:

got to put weather stations up

that were tracking the weather

912

:

so that we could have like really hyper

forecasting neural networks

913

:

that were, that are going to tell us

when we should run the race.

914

:

we had a, company

that we used for CFD analysis,

915

:

and we were running hundreds of hours

of CFD to try to find the aero formation

916

:

that we came up with that

I, alluded to earlier

917

:

and there was, one part of it

918

:

that not a lot of people

know is the, marathon course

919

:

is, 42.

920

:

it's it's, a marathon course.

921

:

It's 26.2 miles. Right.

922

:

And the, but to measure it,

they use this like, medieval,

923

:

device that's, called a Jones [Counter]

I call a medieval device.

924

:

But it's like this, this old device

that, sits on a bike and a, a course

925

:

measure will come and it takes over,

like, mechanically, to to measure this.

926

:

Yeah, I've seen them.

927

:

I have see them. Yeah. I have no idea.

What do you mean?

928

:

I have one in my garage right now

because I have the bike that we use

929

:

to measure this distance

and ratify the course

930

:

when I saw that and I was like, whoa,

wait a minute, here I go.

931

:

So what happens when you calibrate

this thing and it's off?

932

:

And it turns out that they know

that the tolerance of this thing is.

933

:

And the error this thing is, is 1m/km.

934

:

So and 42.195km,

935

:

you can have plus or -42m

when you measure the distance.

936

:

So what they do

is they add 42m on to the course.

937

:

But if you had already over

measured by 42, now you're up to 84m.

938

:

They could be wrong.

939

:

Not likely,

but it could be 12 of course, by 84m.

940

:

And when you're talking about 26 seconds

that we missed it last time,

941

:

I'm like, whoa, we need to find out

a better way to do this.

942

:

So most of my time, I spent 80% of my time

in Vienna that year,

943

:

and most of my time was

944

:

we were remapping the course

and we were using we, used lighter

945

:

to create a 3D mesh of,

the course that we wanted to use.

946

:

And then we had to find a way

947

:

to use differential GPS

to map that physically onto the road.

948

:

And then we would continue to learn

things.

949

:

And I had this, crew

that would go out with me,

950

:

that would remap it to the road,

every time that we would make

951

:

an update to it.

And literally they were like,

952

:

come on again,

because they didn't really understand,

953

:

why it was so important.

954

:

And I would sit over top of them

and look and, and make sure that they're

955

:

getting these differential GPS poles

exactly where they needed to be.

956

:

And they didn't.

They spoke German and I spoke English.

957

:

And like I thought they were my friends,

I don't think they really liked me.

958

:

But, at the end of the day,

we were able to get the course

959

:

to be 42.195km plus or -ten centimeters.

960

:

And so we were able to get spot on.

961

:

Quick.

962

:

A quick question, did you actually,

for the race, draw a line

963

:

where we had to run to make sure he takes

the precise shortest way? Yes.

964

:

It was somewhat of a mistake

965

:

because we created

what was kind of like a goat path for him,

966

:

and turns out if he had stepped

967

:

one foot on the line, he was disqualified.

968

:

And because of

969

:

that, we optimized

and he was doing circuits and,

970

:

we had optimized the course.

971

:

So, so perfect

that now that because he was worried

972

:

about putting a foot on the line,

he wasn't running exactly on it.

973

:

So he ran more than the, the course

distance because around the curves,

974

:

he was like off by a meter from what

the optimal line was.

975

:

And that added distance around,

so there are a lot of things

976

:

that like on the day you're like, wow,

it's not how I thought it was going to go.

977

:

But, we were able to,

we were able to get him on for two hours.

978

:

He did it in 1:59:40.2.

979

:

So what you're saying is,

and I think our viewers and our listeners

980

:

can deduct this themselves,

that you're actually

981

:

the reason why, Mr.

982

:

Kipchoge

broke this record in the first place.

983

:

But like you said, using lead,

our technology, you know, all the time

984

:

and effort that you put into this

on a specific circuit.

985

:

you know, back in 2023, Kelvin Kiptum

from Kenya,

986

:

ran the Chicago Marathon,

and he did it in

987

:

two hours and 35 seconds on, you know,

without all the bells and whistles.

988

:

That or the support that you gave the,

989

:

the of 159 challenge.

990

:

Right.

991

:

Are we going to see a marathoner

in the near future?

992

:

Go under two hours on a normal course?

993

:

Yeah, I hope so.

994

:

I hope,

I hope there are things that we learned,

995

:

that that helped that along, too,

because that was the whole point of it.

996

:

You know, we didn't just do it so that

we could be the first ones to do it.

997

:

We did it

so that we could move the sport forward.

998

:

And, it's just like when you saw

somebody break the four minute mile

999

:

than it all,

you know, more people started to do it.

:

00:54:51,788 --> 00:54:55,166

and hopefully there are some learnings

that were applied when,

:

00:54:55,166 --> 00:54:57,127

when he ran in Chicago.

:

00:54:57,127 --> 00:55:00,130

and, yeah,

:

00:55:00,255 --> 00:55:03,216

I, I'm sure that we will see it.

:

00:55:03,216 --> 00:55:04,134

it's just a matter of when.

:

00:55:06,219 --> 00:55:06,886

Okay.

:

00:55:06,886 --> 00:55:08,513

why?

:

00:55:08,513 --> 00:55:10,140

My last question.

:

00:55:10,140 --> 00:55:12,309

Short answer. You might just laugh.

:

00:55:12,309 --> 00:55:17,105

I am 52 years old now, and I was a

pretty good solid rider back in my days.

:

00:55:17,439 --> 00:55:22,277

If I have a comeback tomorrow,

can you make me top ten next year?

:

00:55:22,277 --> 00:55:23,528

Tour de France. Not.

:

00:55:23,528 --> 00:55:27,699

Not in ten days,

but next year, 365 days from now.

:

00:55:27,907 --> 00:55:30,660

Can you add me working together every day?

:

00:55:30,660 --> 00:55:33,079

Can you make me top

ten in the tour de France next year?

:

00:55:33,079 --> 00:55:34,581

Well, what do you say to that?

:

00:55:34,581 --> 00:55:37,584

Do you still have the ability to say, shut

up, legs?

:

00:55:37,625 --> 00:55:39,711

Hahaha, that's a good answer.

:

00:55:39,711 --> 00:55:42,005

I guess I can dig that somehow.

:

00:55:42,005 --> 00:55:42,881

I can dig it still.

:

00:55:42,881 --> 00:55:45,884

Oh yes my friend, that we can do it.

:

00:55:46,176 --> 00:55:47,344

Awesome.

:

00:55:47,344 --> 00:55:49,471

Already did. Was I say Jenzie?

:

00:55:49,471 --> 00:55:52,724

Now, I think we've figured out your secret

:

00:55:52,724 --> 00:55:55,727

for being such a great cyclist.

:

00:55:55,727 --> 00:55:59,439

Was you were always in the breakaway,

so you were always cooling yourself.

:

00:56:00,357 --> 00:56:01,608

Yeah, right.

:

00:56:01,608 --> 00:56:02,984

You know. So, yeah.

:

00:56:02,984 --> 00:56:06,321

Put that into your your training regimen

for for all the ends.

:

00:56:06,321 --> 00:56:09,532

Robbie because, yeah,

I don't know many people

:

00:56:09,532 --> 00:56:13,036

that, had is more breakaway

kilometers than all Jensie here.

:

00:56:13,036 --> 00:56:15,580

But now that now we know

that he was just trying to stay cool,

:

00:56:15,580 --> 00:56:16,873

he wasn't trying to win races.

:

00:56:16,873 --> 00:56:19,000

He knew what he's

doing to stay cool. Yeah.

:

00:56:20,627 --> 00:56:21,336

Hey, Robbie.

:

00:56:21,336 --> 00:56:23,254

Thanks a million for being our guest.

:

00:56:23,254 --> 00:56:25,131

It was super interesting.

:

00:56:25,131 --> 00:56:28,718

I actually did learn a lot of new things.

:

00:56:28,718 --> 00:56:31,596

I hope I understand

most of it, to be honest.

:

00:56:31,596 --> 00:56:34,933

But it was fantastic

to have you as our guest, Robbie.

:

00:56:34,933 --> 00:56:37,519

And hopefully

with some more future project,

:

00:56:37,519 --> 00:56:39,521

we can have you back as our guest.

:

00:56:39,521 --> 00:56:43,149

Maybe next year, same time

and we check on you.

:

00:56:43,441 --> 00:56:46,236

What are you up to in the years to come?

:

00:56:46,236 --> 00:56:48,279

Thanks a million for being our guest.

:

00:56:48,279 --> 00:56:49,948

Hey, thanks so much for having me, guys.

:

00:56:49,948 --> 00:56:52,367

This was fun.

:

00:56:52,367 --> 00:56:52,450

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About the Podcast

The Odd Tandem Cycling Podcast with Bobby Julich and Jens Voigt
Bobby Julich and Jens Voigt on all things cycling
Bobby Julich and Jens Voigt are back with a brand new cycling podcast. Speaking to the biggest names in the professional peloton and sharing their wisdom from their own careers.