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Published on:

30th Aug 2024

Tom Dumoulin: The accidental cyclist

Tom Dumoulin was one of the most successful riders of his generation. A Giro d'Italia winner, a world TT champion, a stage winner at every grand tour and an Olympic medallist.

His decision to step away from cycling during 2021 shocked the sport, and Tom admitted he'd lost his passion for the sport. When he returned few expected him to return to his competitive best. But Tom was able to secure a second Olympic medal in Tokyo.

This wide ranging conversation with Bobby and Jens sees Tom explore his inadvertent entry into the world of professional cycling, why he lost his love and how he rediscovered his verve for the sport. He discusses what's changed since he left the sport, the riders he admires... and the radical solution to cycling's inequality problem that he picked up at this year's Tour de France.


This podcast is available in video on the OddTandem Youtube channel and ad free on the Odd Tandem Patreon page.


Follow us on social media just search for @OddTandem on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok and Instagram.


Youtube.com/@oddtandem

Transcript
Speaker:

Hello everyone, and welcome

to another episode of The Odd Tandem.

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Our guest today

has won stages in all three Grand Tours.

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He won the overall Giro d'Italia in 2017.

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He's been the world

time trial champion, as well as two time

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Olympic silver medalist in the time trial.

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With a mountain of success over the years,

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one would think all was fine and dandy.

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But then suddenly, out of the blue,

he decided that he needed to take a break

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from cycling to sort a couple things out

and Jensie

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after the talk that we had with him

just now,

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I think he's

well on his way to sorting things out.

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Don't you agree?

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Well, absolutely.

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It was because he was the first high

profile athlete of our sport

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to take a break and talking about, hey,

I felt the pressure.

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I didn't like it.

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And to see him now,

he's still smiling at it and goes, yeah,

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I didn't like this thing I loved before,

I started to hate it,

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so I needed some distance from it

to share that with us.

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And the way he came back,

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it's nice to see him

that he found his happy place in life.

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So sit back and relax and listen

to our great interview with Tom Dumoulin.

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All right everybody,

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special guest today, Tom Dumoulin

and welcome to the Odd Tandem.

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Thank you. Thank you.

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I have to say, you know,

we have this little draft board,

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little list of people, and you've been

on that list for a very, very long time.

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I mean, our careers didn't really

you know, I didn't race with you.

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I was already, well, retired

by the time you started racing.

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But, I'm super excited about today.

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you've always been

a very interesting rider, in my opinion.

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I always like big guys

that could climb in time trial.

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And you did very well

at both of those things. So.

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So we do this little thing

with a couple questions

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just to kind of get the ball rolling

a little bit, little quickfire things.

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So you game for a little four question

quick fire up.

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So sure. Go ahead.

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All right.

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Nowadays

preferred activity a bike ride or a run.

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run.

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Okay.

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Favorite grand tour?

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Giro, Tour of Vuelta.

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tour de France.

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Okay.

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And these days,

when you're out there running or biking,

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do you prefer to fuel with Haribo

gummy bears or like,

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gels?

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nothing.

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I just just ride.

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I just go short enough to not eat.

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That's a great idea.

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That's that's that's smart.

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Okay.

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Last one, because, quite interested in

to hear your response here.

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Do you prefer or did you prefer training

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with a power meter or just on sensations?

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Sensations?

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Okay. Yeah, definitely.

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I didn't think you would answer that.

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You kind of came off to me

as being a very cerebral, scientific guy.

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So. Yeah.

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Tell us, tell us why you would choose,

the sensations over power.

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Were you not like a, a numbers guy?

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no, I really wasn't, actually.

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Yeah, I was, I was really going.

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I'm feeling a lot of at the time,

I was very interested in all the data

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and all the scientific things behind it,

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but I would always,

have my feeling lead me.

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So eventually,

at the race, my feeling would

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be the starting and the end, you know,

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and I would have the data

help me a little bit, but,

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mostly in training and,

not really in racing and racing and,

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my, my job, my goal,

my ambition was to to be as fast

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and as good as possible, you know,

and then the data wouldn't really help me.

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So in the races, I didn't use it very much

only in time trials.

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And then only in the first, like,

let's say ten minutes

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to get my pacing slightly right,

you know, but

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to make sure that you,

you don't start way too fast

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because of the adrenaline

and not to start to slow.

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So I would have a little bit of

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a help with the data and my time trials.

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But after that I would just go on feeling.

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Yeah, that is actually quite unusual,

especially in these days.

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we had not long too long ago

we had, Josh Tarling,

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a really good time trialer

and he was talking,

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I think, at least twice about pacing

or three times pacing strategy.

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So nowadays

they go, hey, Josh Tarling’s a big boy So.

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Hey, Josh you go

460 watts up this little highway bridge.

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And then you recover with 250W.

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And then, honestly, 420W,

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you wouldn't ever really be

too much into that.

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Well, I would make a plan, beforehand.

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So, together with my trainer,

I would make a plan like that.

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But then I would,

it would go out of the window because,

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well, not completely out of the window,

but I would use it in the back of my mind

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as a sort of a benchmark, like, okay,

this is something I would like to do, but,

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I would not look too much to my,

to my power data alone.

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I would always go on feeling and,

and use the data

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only as a small help during the race.

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But I think if you prepare well,

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then you don't really need the data

at the,

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at the moment itself because, you need it

a little bit, but not too much.

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Yeah.

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And, you know, you

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started off in a pretty small team

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and you ended your career on probably,

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you know, the biggest team

that we've seen.

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what were some of those

what were some of the differences between

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when you, when you started and

when you ended both positive and negative.

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Phwoar, It was huge.

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Yeah.

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I no the difference couldn't be bigger.

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But I think it's not only the difference

in teams, but mostly different

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in 12 years.

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You know, the, world of cycling changed

so much from when I started my career.

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And when I ended my career,

it was just more like data driven,

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more scientific, more,

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more specialized and in all

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aspects

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of the sport, you know, in nutrition,

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in training, in mental

coaching, in everything.

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It was just perfected.

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But for me, it took,

it took a little bit my,

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the adventure feeling away that I had

in the sport and a little bit the, the,

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the joy that I had in the sport

because it got so it got to be so

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clean, like, okay, you just eat this

and you train this and then you get this

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end result, you know, and for me, it

it doesn't work like that.

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And it didn't work like that.

And that was the biggest change that,

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that

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I had

been experiencing throughout my career.

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but that didn't really have to do so much

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with difference in teams,

but more so, the change in sport,

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when we already talked about, the teams,

I know it's a big jump,

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but let's move

backwards another 15 years earlier.

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When and how did you actually get in

touch with cycling?

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How do you start your parents,

your older brother or whatever?

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Yeah, a friends of you got you into

cycling or how do you get into it?

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I mean, it's common in Holland

to use a bike on a daily basis right?

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To ride to school and all that. But yeah.

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When did you ever found out,

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did you have some interest

in like, racing with a license?

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Yeah.

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It's very common

to, to use a bike as a transportation

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in the Netherlands,

but not so common, to use it as a,

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as a sports thing,

you know, as a, as a so,

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it was a

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complete coincidence that I started

riding, actually, I yeah, I had,

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I always had a good condition,

so I could run really fast.

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so I tried, I athletics,

but I needed to do everyday

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sport, you know, I needed to do, jumping.

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I needed to do high jump and,

spear throwing and stuff like that,

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and I didn't like that,

so I only wanted to run,

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but it wasn't possible

at the athletic club that I want to.

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And then I thought,

oh, let's try a different,

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sport that that focuses on

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physical condition,

which was cycling for me.

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At what age, what age? 15.

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So it just by coincidence, I,

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I went to the club and I, I was like,

I want to try this thing called cycling.

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And I know nothing about it.

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My parents didn't do it.

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my, my, my sisters didn't do it.

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None of my friends.

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I was just I went there and I thought,

maybe this is something for me.

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And I started riding, and I.

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I wasn't very good, but I liked it.

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And I saw it as a pure hobby

that I did twice a week.

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You know, like, a lot of kids go twice

a week to the to the football club.

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I went twice a week to the cycling club.

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But other than that,

it was not really with,

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with my mind on being a professional

rider or something.

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that started only when I was like 18, 19.

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I got

I got progressively better every year,

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and I enjoyed it more every year.

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And every year I got more ambitious.

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And then suddenly,

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the national team invited me to go on

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club training or on, on the,

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on national

training with the national team.

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and then it was suddenly very good.

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I, I won all the hills sprints

that we did in the training

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and I could tag along for one Nations

Cup race.

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so the International Nations Cup

race that that,

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yeah, that you do as a under 23 rider.

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And I went there,

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I didn't even have a

there was it, it was a multiple day event.

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So stage was of three

stages, of which one was a time trial.

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But I never did a time trial in my life.

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Not on the TT bike.

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I didn't even have a TT bike at the time.

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So I borrowed one off my friend,

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from the same cycling club

as I was in in the Netherlands.

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And then,

I raced the time trial and I won it

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in front of Nelson Oliveira.

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and Nairo Quintana was there and, yeah

many of the of the guys that I also became

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professional with, and I was sort of

this new kid that nobody heard of.

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and I won the, time

trial and I won the GC.

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And then,

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the ball started

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rolling and,

the professional teams got interested,

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but it was really not really my goal of

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of becoming a professional rider. Now

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I want to go back and touch

on something that you said about,

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you know, the

the way the sport had changed

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wasn't quite

the way that you wanted to do it

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and why I'm so excited

that you're on the podcast

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today is like I said,

I was a huge fan of yours.

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And then it just seemed

like all of a sudden

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there was, it seemed like a conflict.

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And you actually wound up taking,

like some time away from the sport.

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can you explain a little bit

about that decision

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to take that time away

and what you did during that time

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in order to kind of, you know,

rekindle the flames and get started again?

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do you have a minute?

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I mean, we have all the time.

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You want, right?

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Like, this is what I want to hear.

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And, well, I got

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so I became professional in 2012,

and it was all a big adventure, you know,

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it was all fun and games

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and I, like I said, I didn't really aim

to become a professional rider.

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Was not really my big childhood dream.

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I just became one suddenly, and then,

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so it was it it was just a big adventure.

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And I wanted to become better,

and I got better and better, and I, I,

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I had a lot of, talent for it,

and I liked it, and,

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but then it became I suddenly in 2015,

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I almost won the Vuelta

until I lost it on the last day. And

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then I went on to, yeah, to to become,

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second that at the Olympics,

I won the Giro d'Italia.

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I became world champion time trial.

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And it was sort of,

my career went faster than

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I mentally could cope with, you know,

I suddenly got

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I didn't know how to deal

with the pressure

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or, or.

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Well, the team wanted something from me

that the sponsors had an idea

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about my career, the fans, the everybody

had an idea of becoming even better.

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And then suddenly,

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the thing that was my dream

became the dream of of many.

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And I found it

very hard to cope with that.

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And then the years after,

struggled with that, until in:

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I made the move to, to Jumbo-Visma,

which was a big move.

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And they, they,

they reeled me in like like

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I was the big Dutch rider who's

going to win the tour de France for them.

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And I quickly found out that I just,

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I felt

like there was a weight on my shoulders

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and I couldn't

handle the training anymore,

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and I couldn't handle the pressure

in there and and everything anymore.

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And at the end of 2020, corona year.

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So we had at the end of that season,

we had all the races

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compressed in a couple of months.

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So with only limited amount of,

of of preparation,

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we needed to do all these races and,

and with being,

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already mentally on the edge,

I completely drained myself.

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And I was just mentally and physically,

I was completely drained,

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at the end of 2020.

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So in the beginning of 2021

and I tried to restart

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my training again,

but it I felt completely drained.

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I couldn't even ride my bike

for two hours.

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And I was, just a wreck.

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So I decided to, to to stop

and to take a break.

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not even with the intention of

of of coming back.

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but then I had a break of like

two months.

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I didn't ride my bike, for two months,

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from mid-February, I think.

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No end of January until end of March.

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And then at the end of March, I felt

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physically slightly better again.

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I felt mentally much fresher.

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And I knew the Olympics

were going to be that year in Tokyo.

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and they were on, on my mind

already for five, 4 or 5 years, actually,

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because they got postponed one year

because of corona.

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And it was the ideal course for me,

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the time trial course it was

and was just perfect.

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And, I had this goal in my mind

already for 4 or 5 years.

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And, and then I decided

in the end of March, with no,

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no training at all,

I decided I need to try this.

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I need to

I need to go to Tokyo and try this.

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And if it doesn't, if I fail

if it doesn't work out, so be it.

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But then at least I tried it.

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And I told the the national coach

and I said, sorry.

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Koos.

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Koos is his name Koos

Moerenhout also ex-professional.

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And I said, Koos

I haven't rode my I haven't,

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rode my bike yet,

but I really want to go to Tokyo.

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and I knew this

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selection had to be made that

that month already.

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So I had all my faith in his hands,

and he said, okay, Tom,

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there's only one time trial specialist

in the Netherlands who could

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potentially have, a shot for a medal,

and that's you.

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So I'm going to select you and.

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And that's all the trust that I needed.

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and then I worked as hard as I could,

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which wasn't very hard

because I was physically

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and mentally still not 100% yet,

but I worked as hard as I could.

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And then I got,

I got the silver in Tokyo, which was

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when I was one of the nicest performances

that I had throughout my career.

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and that was actually the sole reason

that I,

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that I really wanted to come back to,

to chase this dream of,

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of maybe becoming an Olympic champion

or to at least get a medal.

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but yeah, I found out after Tokyo again.

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Then I also said to the team

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leading up to Tokyo, because the years

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before, I felt so much pressure

from from the team.

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not only from the team,

but of everyone around them.

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Not not with bad intentions,

but I felt a lot of pressure,

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and I said, let me do it my way.

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On feeling again.

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Forget all the data.

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forget all the

I need to do this on feeling

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I'm still coming back from from burnout

or overtraining, you know?

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and and that's what I did.

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I did it completely, feeling,

the whole preparation,

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when I felt tired,

I took a step back when.

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And it felt like

this dream was mine again.

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it was not the dream of many.

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It was my dream.

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And I felt, from the inside

that it was very special.

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And, Yeah, that's

that's that's sort of the story

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around me, having this, this break.

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I always say that

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cyclists are so darn tough,

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but what you just shared

with us, our viewers and our listeners

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about that mental side is,

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is crazy powerful.

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when you know,

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we're not supposed to talk about

this mental side of the sport, right?

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We're all supposed to be these tough guys

that go out and win bike races.

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when when you took that time off,

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I saw some adventures that you went on.

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You went to the Himalayas,

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you went to Costa Rica,

you kind of went all over the place with,

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what was that about?

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Was that trying to kind of sort things

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out in your head, or was it like, hey,

I still love the bike.

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I just want to enjoy it

in a different way.

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No, but, there's,

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the Himalayas and Costa Rica I did

when I really retired.

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So two years ago,

I went to to to Sweden to,

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to, to watch the,

how do you see the northern Lights?

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When I was, when I was having this break.

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So it was beautiful, but,

No, I was different.

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Different from,

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the things that I did after my career.

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Yeah.

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That was also to clear my mind

and to to do completely different things.

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But it was,

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during this break,

it was really with the in.

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Well, I didn't have an intention at all.

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I, I didn't know if I was going

to come back to cycling yes or no.

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so I went,

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I went off to, to clear my head and to.

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Yeah, to

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see if I would still love riding my bike.

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And actually,

the thing that triggered me to really come

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back was middle of April 2021

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when the, Amstel gold race, was

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because, the Amstel Gold race was always,

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well, like I said, as a child,

I had nothing to do with cycling.

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My family had nothing to do with cycling.

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The only race that I watched

once a year was the,

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the Amstel Gold race,

because the finish of the Amstel Gold race

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was really close to my home in Maastricht

in the very south of the Netherlands.

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and that triggered me to,

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to get into cycling

when I was a 15 year old kid.

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And it triggered me again

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when, when, when I had this

break away from cycling, in:

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I went as a, as a spectator to,

to watch the Amstel gold race.

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And, I was there and I watched all those,

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all the buses at the start

and all the riders and,

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warming up and doing their thing

and watching the race

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and the final,

and I thought, wow, this is beautiful.

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This is this is what I had been doing for

for many, many years.

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And I lost the

fun out of it or in it. But,

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this is beautiful.

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I mean, I need to do this again.

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This is this is not over yet,

so the Amstel Gold race

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is a very special,

very special thing for me.

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And when when you went, to your trip

up, to Sweden,

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did you, make all those decisions or.

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the clearing your mind by yourself?

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You took a friend

or a girlfriend or partner, or

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you had a proper professional to talk to,

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or you just used your own head?

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I think over time,

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during my time in Sweden,

but also my time just at home,

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enjoying time at home with my dog and,

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I think it was mostly me and just just me

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thinking and dreaming about about,

the, about the Olympics again.

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Yeah. Well, what what dog do you have,

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a white shepherd.

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Big white shepherd.

394

:

this, American, Canadian white shepherd.

395

:

yeah. So it's sort of the same.

Yeah, yeah.

396

:

Swiss

white shepherd or Canadian white shepherd.

397

:

Yeah, yeah. Charlize.

398

:

so if I was to take two months off

to figure some stuff out,

399

:

I think,

I think I would probably gain ten kilos.

400

:

But he, you know, you know,

401

:

but you, you were able to come back

from that pretty quickly, you know,

402

:

like you said, from from the couch

to the podium on the Olympics.

403

:

I, I've seen a little bit

on your social media,

404

:

and then our, buddy Karsten

Kroon says you do a lot of running,

405

:

and, was looking

at some of your running times.

406

:

Were you actually running

during that time,

407

:

or was it an absolute complete

and total physical reset?

408

:

Yeah. Completely physical reset.

409

:

Yeah, yeah.

410

:

But I think I was just

completely overtrained

411

:

when I, when I took this break.

412

:

So I think my body also what my body

needed was only, only time to heal.

413

:

You know, all the training was in there.

414

:

So I think it needed that time,

that period of two months

415

:

to, to either recover

from all the stress and,

416

:

the physical and mental stress

from, from the years before. So

417

:

although I didn't ride my bike,

I think my body

418

:

was still getting better over time.

419

:

But by doing nothing, you know?

420

:

So, but I definitely needed those, those

421

:

those months again, those three months

that I still had after my decision

422

:

to to come back to Tokyo,

I still needed those, those three months

423

:

to, to get back as some sort of,

competitive level.

424

:

And I wasn't at my best physical level

I was ever

425

:

in, in Tokyo,

but still good enough to win silver.

426

:

So quite, quite all right.

427

:

So now that that you're retired,

for good,

428

:

you still follow cycling,

you still watch all the races.

429

:

You're a commentator yourself, right?

430

:

With Dutch TV, correct?

431

:

Yeah, exactly. So.

432

:

So when I retired.

433

:

So Tokyo happened.

434

:

Then one year later, I retired.

435

:

I found out that

436

:

that I needed my freedom.

437

:

I was just looking for freedom.

438

:

I was looking to adventure.

439

:

And I couldn't find it in

professional cycling anymore.

440

:

It wasn't for me anymore.

441

:

And, I, I reached,

442

:

I got everything

out of out of the cycling.

443

:

What that I wanted,

I think out of my professional career.

444

:

I had great results

and I had a great time.

445

:

And for me, it was time to move on.

446

:

And, so then then I went to Costa Rica.

447

:

I went to the Himalayas, I went to,

I went to do all fun things.

448

:

And I took a, I took,

a big step back from cycling.

449

:

I didn't watch anything.

I didn't watch the news.

450

:

I didn't watch the results. Nothing.

451

:

And then I from from that period, I,

452

:

I sort of got stimulated again, like,

453

:

but I this, this bike thing,

I just love it,

454

:

you know, I, I hated it for a while,

but I love it again.

455

:

And I want to try if there's something,

456

:

something there for me still in this,

in this beautiful cycling world. And

457

:

I gave

retirement party in December:

458

:

I invited all my friends and relatives

459

:

in, in, in the cycling world.

460

:

And I was there with, I think, 150 people,

all from the cycling world.

461

:

And then I complete

and I found out, like, wow,

462

:

what,

what a cool bunch of of people, you know,

463

:

and then I then I thought, okay, this

this is still for me.

464

:

And I now I'm working as an ambassador

for Giant.

465

:

I work for the Dutch TV

NOS as an analyst and commentator.

466

:

And now I follow.

467

:

I follow it all together.

468

:

So, yeah, I love it.

469

:

Love it again.

470

:

That's that's awesome. That's awesome.

471

:

I think we all, regardless

of those mini breaks that we take,

472

:

we're always going to be attracted again

to to riding bikes

473

:

because I mean I think that's

just inherently inside of us.

474

:

But now that you're a commentator,

you know, you won Grand

475

:

Tours, Olympic

medals, World championships,

476

:

like you said, you were on the

the cutting edge of this sport.

477

:

What do you see

with this younger generation

478

:

that that you just appreciate the most?

479

:

Because let's face it,

the racing that we're seeing these days

480

:

is a totally different level

than I was racing back in:

481

:

And, you know,

has has just gotten better and better.

482

:

But what are those things that just kind

of have you scratching your head?

483

:

Yeah.

484

:

They're flying nowadays.

485

:

with my level in 2017,

486

:

I would not have won the Giro

d’Italia nowadays.

487

:

So they

they made a big step, big step up again.

488

:

And I think it's due to

489

:

professionalism

and training and nutrition, for example,

490

:

especially nutrition,

I think they made a big step forward.

491

:

actually, the whole peloton.

492

:

But but the, the fun thing

is, is that even though

493

:

all those teams are getting more

and more professional

494

:

and all the riders have, access

to all this information

495

:

and all this data and stuff

like that, still, the, the racing

496

:

the last couple of years

has been more and more exciting, actually.

497

:

We've seen so many attacks

from from far away.

498

:

We've seen, bold moves.

499

:

We’ve seen everything actually.

500

:

And, yeah,

especially some of the guys like,

501

:

like Pogacar and Mathieu

Van Der Poel and, I mean, they're

502

:

it gets you

503

:

to the tip of your seat, you know,

how do you say this inEnglish?

504

:

yeah.

505

:

Yeah, it's just exciting to watch.

506

:

So, yeah, it's it's super professional,

but still,

507

:

really fun to watch last couple of years.

508

:

And it seems like that

at most of the races

509

:

or all the big races are won

by like three, maybe four teams.

510

:

And maybe six different riders. Yeah.

511

:

Why do you think is, is that

the same reasons more professional,

512

:

more professional or got bigger budgets

to buy better teammates to help them?

513

:

I think

514

:

I think if you

I couldn’t talk for, for all teams.

515

:

But if you if you for example zoom

in to to Visma-Lease

516

:

a bike the previous Jumbo-Visma.

517

:

I think they started with being very

professional on all aspects of the sport.

518

:

So, so like I said,

mental coaching, training, nutrition,

519

:

materials, everything.

520

:

They're, they're,

they're making big step forward.

521

:

And, that attracts also good riders

522

:

and good riders need money

and it takes the sponsors with them.

523

:

So, they started

524

:

with quite a small budget

like ten years ago,

525

:

but now you have one of the biggest

budgets, maybe even the biggest,

526

:

but the biggest budget. I think it's UAE.

527

:

but, in the, in the, in

professional cycling.

528

:

So, it's not only about money,

but it's, it's, it's, it has more to do

529

:

with, with the professionalism

that that these big teams.

530

:

yeah.

531

:

Show and, and it takes all the other

teams also with them.

532

:

I mean,

533

:

last year and two years ago

534

:

you saw that that Jumbo-Visma

or Visma-Lease-a-bike

535

:

they were actually

536

:

on top, by a big margin.

537

:

I'm not I'm not anymore, actually.

538

:

UAE is is

is is maybe even better this year.

539

:

than than they are.

540

:

so I think in in time

541

:

it will evolve to being to to more teams

being more competitive

542

:

hopefully. But,

543

:

what do you,

what do you guys actually think about,

544

:

like a budget cap or,

or something or like,

545

:

like in the NBA or, yeah.

546

:

I think it's difficult because now

some of the big teams have all the money

547

:

and they buy big riders and they have

all the money to spend on materials and,

548

:

and data science and everything up

to the wind tunnel testing the altitude

549

:

training camps to sent masseurs

and, team doctor to the altitude camps.

550

:

Yeah, yeah,

we we had that a few times to talk.

551

:

We had Kim Andersen the sport

director of Lidl-Trek before.

552

:

And, a lot of people,

we just have to find a fair

553

:

or clear way for some sort of salary cap

because just like whatever.

554

:

In soccer in Germany,

we got like 3 or 4 teams

555

:

with more money, they dominate everything

in a British soccer league.

556

:

And it's going that way

a little bit, right.

557

:

Because UAE good for them.

558

:

But, they seem to have an almost unlimited

budget, right?

559

:

I mean, my, my, my first team in 98,

I know it's a long time ago

560

:

I think we had like four, maybe

5 million budget for the entire team.

561

:

Yeah.

562

:

That is Jonas Vingegaard or Pogacar’s

salary.

563

:

Just one rider.

564

:

We had an entire team for that money,

you know.

565

:

So yeah, money can buy to a large extent.

566

:

Money can buy success.

567

:

So, yeah, I think that it would be good

568

:

to don't lose the so-called small teams.

569

:

I hate to say that

because they're not small,

570

:

they just have less of a budget,

they still work hard.

571

:

They're still a respectable

professional team.

572

:

So to don't drop them and the sponsors go,

why should I even give you 5

573

:

or 10 million if I only finish 15th

in the tour for that much money, you know?

574

:

So yeah, yeah,

I see, yeah, it's like that. Yeah.

575

:

We should consider that. Right. Bobby?

What?

576

:

What's your point on this?

577

:

Yeah.

578

:

you know, you mentioned it

with Kim Andersen when he came on here

579

:

I kind of agree with what he said

where there should be, you know,

580

:

you can have

whatever budget you want for the team, but

581

:

there should be

a cap on the rider salaries.

582

:

So he used an example of,

hey, if a guy gets 6 million, that's fine.

583

:

But then you just have less

for the rest of your riders, I think.

584

:

I think that's definitely something

that needs to be discussed.

585

:

because, yeah, it's it's kind of crazy

looking at the Arsenal of champion riders

586

:

that are kind of all stacked into one team

and it

587

:

it yeah, we, we just need to spread

that around a little bit.

588

:

And that's already happening.

589

:

You know Julian Alaphilippe and Mark

Hirschi are changing you know

590

:

from their teams to a smaller Swiss

team Tudor with Fabian Cancellara.

591

:

So maybe it will be,

adjusting itself a little bit.

592

:

I heard a great idea from, Marco Pinotti.

593

:

I was talking to him

in, in the tour de France, in, in Italy

594

:

this year, and he said, actually,

you have all these points in the world

595

:

tour points.

Every rider gets points for every race.

596

:

And you just need every, every race

and every team.

597

:

They need to have

this maximum points in their team.

598

:

So you go to the tour de France

with eight rider and you can only have

599

:

like maximum, let's say 100 points.

600

:

And if you take one rider who has,

60 points, you can only have 40 points

601

:

for the for the other seven, you know,

and then you divide,

602

:

you can, you can choose one

big leader, Pogacar, let's say.

603

:

But then you have seven,

604

:

seven, well,

605

:

worse, well, worse is a bad

606

:

name, but,

yeah, seven not so good riders.

607

:

I mean, now you have Pogacar,

you have Almeida, you have, yeah.

608

:

Yates. yeah.

609

:

Yeah, yeah, I use it.

610

:

And and he's almost unbeatable.

611

:

But if you have Pogacar

with, seven riders, seven riders

612

:

who are not world class,

then you get a fun race, you know,

613

:

but that could also be,

I thought it was a nice idea,

614

:

but to to to, like, take, take it,

take it a step further.

615

:

Imagine, Alpecin Deceuninck go.

616

:

okay, then I think we only send

617

:

Jasper Phillipsen and Mathieu Van der Poel

and nobody else.

618

:

So we

we save the points from the other riders

619

:

and just go with two riders and they’re

both going to win stages.

620

:

But it's not possible.

That's all possible.

621

:

But you can take six other riders who

almost didn't get any world tour points.

622

:

So you know that's possible. So,

623

:

good old Marco.

624

:

Not a bad idea. Idea.

625

:

you wrote a book with, Nando Boers?

626

:

Yeah. Nando Boers?

627

:

Yeah. What was that experience like?

628

:

Because, you know, Jens, you've written

a couple books, and I've talked to people

629

:

that have written books,

and it seems to be,

630

:

you could go down a rabbit hole

pretty, pretty easily.

631

:

So what was your experience like writing,

your book?

632

:

for me,

633

:

it was nothing to do about going down

a rabbit hole.

634

:

for me, it was, actually very

635

:

a very beautiful experience

to to be writing this book together with.

636

:

Nando actually.

637

:

We made, we made a trip to

638

:

we made three trips to, to places

that were important to my career.

639

:

So we went to Italy

because I won the Giro.

640

:

Of course, we went to Bergen in Norway,

where I became world champion,

641

:

and we went to Andorra,

642

:

where I won the mountain stage

in the tour de France in:

643

:

So we visited those places

to bring back memories

644

:

and to talk along the way about my career

and stuff like that.

645

:

And, I, I couldn't have imagined

646

:

that it was this almost therapeutic.

647

:

trip that it, that it became.

648

:

I mean, it was very special

649

:

and, yeah, it was very special

and sometimes emotional to be it at the,

650

:

the places

that were so important to my career

651

:

because we went to these places

because they had nice

652

:

and beautiful memories for me.

653

:

But along the way, we came across,

654

:

the downhill

655

:

where I crashed in 2012 in the Vuelta

nobody knows about,

656

:

but I ripped open my belly,

657

:

crashing into the barriers,

in a downhill.

658

:

And, it was it was horrible.

659

:

And there was blood

everywhere, and I had I crashed down to,

660

:

down the mountain,

661

:

then climbed back up

and everything was red, you know,

662

:

it was just a horrible, horrible memory.

663

:

And while we were riding the route

664

:

of of me

winning the stage in:

665

:

at least we came by this place

that I crashed.

666

:

And completely unexpected,

I didn't expect.

667

:

I forgot about it, to be honest,

and I suddenly realised that.

668

:

And,

that there were quite a couple of these,

669

:

these moments during our trips.

670

:

like I said, beautiful,

671

:

but also very emotional.

672

:

and and for me, it was, yeah.

673

:

Yeah, it was, very special

674

:

to be to be writing this book together

with, with Nando.

675

:

And do you have any plans of it

coming out in English any time soon?

676

:

I do actually, but

677

:

we still need to find a publisher.

678

:

All right.

679

:

Well, it it's, it's it's out in Dutch

and it's coming out in, in German.

680

:

but, I hope it all will be published

681

:

in the in, in English too.

682

:

Okay.

683

:

That would be my next question as well.

684

:

And, so,

just if it comes out in English,

685

:

what could we expect,

like your entire career, your childhood,

686

:

not just the highlights or two years

of your career or what can we expect some

687

:

some some private stories about your what

whatever childhood or about your parents?

688

:

Well, also,

yes, it's going to be quite personal.

689

:

but I'm taking the reader

690

:

with me along the way,

throughout my career and of course,

691

:

the stories of me as a kid not cycling

and just doing other things.

692

:

And suddenly, by coincidence,

getting in, getting into cycling,

693

:

you know, those stories, of course they,

they, they're in the, in the book, but,

694

:

it's mostly about me reflecting in on the,

on my career, on the beautiful moments.

695

:

But like I said,

definitely on the emotional and hard

696

:

and difficult moments

that I had, especially,

697

:

me being this adventurous

698

:

boy coming into the sport

that wasn't really mine.

699

:

which I felt like a stranger sometimes.

700

:

but me finding my way into the sport,

getting better and getting more ambitious,

701

:

and then also experiencing that,

702

:

that suddenly

I found the thing that I loved,

703

:

I started to dislike

or even hate at one point,

704

:

the, the bike and the cycling world.

705

:

And why is that?

706

:

And why did I feel that way?

707

:

and,

708

:

how did I overcome it as well?

709

:

and how do I look back at it now?

710

:

and it yeah, we, we like I said, we,

we made all these trips

711

:

and we had a lot of,

a lot of talks about my career

712

:

and, yeah, I'm actually very happy

with how the book came out.

713

:

And it's not,

714

:

yeah, sometimes it's, it

715

:

it was difficult.

716

:

but, at the end,

717

:

I think it's a very honest book about,

718

:

about me, but also about.

719

:

But the cycling world in general. Yeah.

720

:

Well, I can't wait for that.

721

:

And, any of our viewers or listeners

that, know a publishing house,

722

:

let's make this happen for,

723

:

just a kind of random question because,

724

:

you know, like I said, I,

I never raced with you,

725

:

but I always had a lot of respect for you,

and it's growing

726

:

by the minute here

listening to you on this podcast.

727

:

But who is a rider that you respected

728

:

the most during your your racing days?

729

:

Oh good question.

730

:

Good question.

731

:

I know, I know an answer

who I respect a lot now, actually.

732

:

And that's, that's Mathieu van der Poel.

733

:

He's he's Dutch, so easy choice.

734

:

But no

no, no, no, but, Mathieu seems to be,

735

:

of seems to be finding the

736

:

ideal, the way between,

737

:

using all the data,

all the professionalism,

738

:

all all the science that has taken over

cycling.

739

:

he's using that to his advantage

740

:

and still being able to

741

:

to enjoy the fun of fun of it, you know,

742

:

to to go out and attack at a moment.

743

:

Nobody expects him to or to,

744

:

I mean, to to to complete rest

745

:

after the, after the classics to say,

okay, I put my phone away for two weeks,

746

:

I go, I go golfing now and, and it's,

747

:

I think it's beautiful to see.

748

:

And it's actually not only Mathieu

van der Poel there’s also Pogacar.

749

:

He he seems to be.

750

:

I mean, yeah, the sport is evolving

in such a professional way

751

:

that sometimes I think a lot there

of robots and, and, and then I look at it

752

:

Mathieu van der Poel and I look at Pogacar

and I think, it's, it's not like that.

753

:

It's it's still as beautiful

as it ever was. So.

754

:

Yeah, they have they're.

755

:

Yeah. I have a lot of respect for them.

756

:

When you

757

:

now just mentioned,

that they use, the power data to,

758

:

you know, get better, in the Vuelta,

I believe it was:

759

:

after you won a stage

in quite impressive style,

760

:

you got some questions

and some negative comments and so on.

761

:

you published all your power data,

and it was almost, like,

762

:

unheard off until then.

763

:

You still okay with that decision?

764

:

And what made you do that?

765

:

And how was the feedback

you got after that?

766

:

Yeah.

767

:

well, there was a Dutch journalist

who had had some question

768

:

about like, okay, Tom, it's 2015.

769

:

you have never had any big results

770

:

in a grand tour, and suddenly

you're almost winning this grand tour

771

:

and you're in the red jersey

and winning multiple stages and and so on.

772

:

And I

and I mean, it was a genuine question.

773

:

I mean, we had, I had a bad,

I mean, cycling had a bad past

774

:

with all the doping stories and,

and I think it was a good question.

775

:

I mean, but at then

776

:

the team decided, okay, maybe.

777

:

Well, he asked,

778

:

to see my, my power

779

:

data and he wanted to justify if it was

780

:

it was correct or not.

781

:

Something.

782

:

And the team said, yeah, why not?

783

:

And I also said, why not?

784

:

I mean, I,

I don't think it's really proof of

785

:

I don't think it's it's really proof of me

786

:

not doping at the time.

787

:

but yeah, I shared it with him and

788

:

yeah, I had nothing

to, to, to be scared of.

789

:

I had nothing to to hide.

790

:

I still have nothing to hide.

791

:

So don't read the book

if you want the juicy doping story,

792

:

because there's nothing there.

793

:

but, yeah, it's, it's me

just being open.

794

:

If you could go back and redo

795

:

one day of your career,

you know, you won a lot of races.

796

:

You're

at the top of your game for a long time.

797

:

But what what one day would you go

back and change if you could?

798

:

I know that one.

799

:

there's there's

800

:

a nice list of riders who have worn

801

:

all the leaders

jerseys of Giro, Tour, Vuelta,

802

:

who have won a stage in line in Giro

803

:

Tour and Vuelta, and who won a time trial

in Giro, Tour and Vuelta.

804

:

And I'm missing only one.

805

:

And that's the yellow jersey.

806

:

So I won a stage,

807

:

in all three grand tours, I won a time

trial in all three grand tours.

808

:

And I've worn.

809

:

Worn all the leader's jerseys

except for one.

810

:

And it could have happened in 2015,

811

:

actually, in, in, in stage three,

if I remember correctly,

812

:

stage three to Huy in Wallonie

813

:

and I, there was a huge, huge crash

and it was

814

:

one of my biggest crashes of my career.

815

:

And I, I crashed

and I broke my shoulder and dislocated it.

816

:

but that was the one day

that that I could have worn the,

817

:

the yellow jersey and that's, that's the

that's the thing missing in my career.

818

:

So if I, if I could redo one day,

it would have been that day

819

:

and I would have, positioned myself

on the left side of the bunch

820

:

instead of the right side.

821

:

So, when we

822

:

talk about, I did one day

you would like to change.

823

:

Nowadays, when you go out or training.

824

:

Are you still feel

the need to prove yourself, to go hard,

825

:

to push yourself or to suffer

or to outperform your run from last week.

826

:

Because for me, as soon as I reach

a certain level of intensity,

827

:

my entire body screams at me,

are you fucking stupid?

828

:

Like we have done that for 33 years.

829

:

Leave me alone.

830

:

I don't want to do anymore.

831

:

So my body, my mind just shuts down.

832

:

Even on a highway bridge, my body

goes, no, no, no, I'm not.

833

:

I'm not up for that anymore.

834

:

How's that for you?

835

:

yeah.

836

:

Sometimes, I have it. Yeah.

837

:

So sometimes it can still,

I can still push my body.

838

:

Yeah, yeah.

Especially when I pin up a number.

839

:

And it's not going to be any cycling races

anymore, but, I had a run last year.

840

:

yeah, I also did

841

:

also this winter,

I did a few runs with a number on and,

842

:

then that I just,

I completely wrecked myself

843

:

to be the best that I can.

844

:

Yeah. Yeah.

845

:

so, sometimes,

but not in training anymore.

846

:

Not in training.

847

:

I sometimes like to push myself

on a climb or

848

:

with running or cycling, but,

I never go into this full red zone,

849

:

you know, as soon as it hurts, as soon as

as my lactate goes, about 5 millimoles

850

:

my body also says no,

but in races, smaller

851

:

races, of course, but small races,

I can still I can still push myself.

852

:

Yeah.

853

:

I mean, push

yourself is an understatement.

854

:

did a little research,

and you've done, 32 minute 10K.

855

:

And what, a 1:10 half marathon.

856

:

that's pretty, pretty fast.

857

:

Are you going to follow up on

have you done a full marathon yet?

858

:

I haven't no no no no I haven't.

859

:

but I want to do one, in the future.

860

:

Yeah, definitely.

861

:

And, like Jens said,

862

:

then then or like I told you,

863

:

I would like to, to go fast

if I, if, if I do it.

864

:

So I would like to prepare

as good as I can.

865

:

I mean, I'm not going to be professional

about it anymore.

866

:

but still if I, if I have this number

and I want to do

867

:

the best that I can and,

so I need some preparation time.

868

:

So what would your goal time

be for a marathon, then?

869

:

What? What bar are you setting?

870

:

I would like to ever be

871

:

within the 2:30 zone that would be nice.

872

:

Yeah, two and a half. Okay.

873

:

remind me again.

874

:

How old are you?

875

:

33. Wow.

876

:

That's impressive.

877

:

So, to help you out here,

I happen to know the people

878

:

from the Berlin marathon.

879

:

We do a bike event together

they do the marathon?

880

:

Berlin marathon and half marathon.

881

:

And also Velo city,

where I work together with them.

882

:

So if your timing is okay,

I think I might give you some help

883

:

to get into the marathon,

which is one of the faster.

884

:

Yeah, I know, I know next year. Yes. Yes.

885

:

Absolutely. Cool.

886

:

Yeah.

887

:

We keep in contact

and I'm going to get you in there.

888

:

Yeah. Very good, very good.

889

:

I be at the finish line for you

890

:

with a nice warm towel or a cold towel

depending on the weather.

891

:

That would be nice. That's the plan.

892

:

what do you know what?

893

:

The fastest marathon

for an ex-professional

894

:

cyclist is, wasn't it?

895

:

Olano? Abraham Olano?

896

:

with, like, 2:38 or something.

897

:

I think Jalabert was in the 40s.

898

:

Two 45:48 maybe.

899

:

Yeah, yeah.

900

:

And yeah, I think, I think, I think,

I think Olano was 2:38 something or so.

901

:

I don't remember exactly,

902

:

but I have done ten marathons

but never with the number on.

903

:

Yeah, but just me and myself just running.

904

:

So I was like, are you ok?

905

:

Are you alright?

906

:

Are you okay Jensie?

907

:

That that sounds a little weird.

908

:

By yourself?

909

:

What do you mean you just run out?

910

:

No number on your back.

911

:

Just, Yeah.

912

:

Hit it.

913

:

Oh, really?

914

:

Yeah.

915

:

What?

916

:

I, I prepared, what?

917

:

One day I had that idea

I would run in the tour de France.

918

:

I would run one marathon per week.

919

:

So one week way. Yeah.

920

:

So because the riders,

they suffer like mad.

921

:

So I can at least suffer a little bit

while I'm out enjoying my vino rosso.

922

:

And, my, my French food.

923

:

did you ever time them?

924

:

yeah. But you know,

925

:

I think three,

926

:

three hours, not two, 336

until four hours.

927

:

I was I'm like, slowly

just moving along, but never that fast.

928

:

My fastest ever was a half

in the city of Vancouver.

929

:

Do you have a beautiful peninsula there?

930

:

Stanley Park.

931

:

And there's a flat, nice,

perfect length, but

932

:

it was 1:28 for the half and I was all in.

933

:

I could never, ever go fast, and it's all.

934

:

I have the deepest respect for you.

935

:

Thank you.

936

:

Our producer actually did a little digging

and he said,

937

:

Daniel Atienza,

do you remember Daniel Atienza?

938

:

Scissors, scissors

We used to call him scissors Holy smoke.

939

:

Because I tell you in the Vuelta

any stage race I was in,

940

:

we called him scissors

because he would basically just sit up

941

:

because he, he was a small climber guy

and he would just cut the peloton in two.

942

:

So we called him scissors.

943

:

Okay. Yeah.

944

:

If you call him scissors

because he cut in every crosswind sections

945

:

and you should have seen

if you ever imagined the stress

946

:

going into the final of the tour,

you should seen

947

:

the crazy fights to be in front of him

when there's a crosswind coming.

948

:

Nobody wanted to sit behind him because

you know, you’re doomed, you’ve lost.

949

:

So he did it in 2:29 minutes.

950

:

That looks like the fastest.

951

:

So. Oh, it looks like a goal.

952

:

There you go. There you go. But he was.

953

:

We got ourselves a goal next year.

954

:

Berlin. All right. Cool.

955

:

Well, Tom, listen, we've had a great talk.

956

:

Thank you so much for coming on with us

today.

957

:

start that training for that.

958

:

That marathon.

959

:

I bet you, you know, Jens was saying that

he doesn't like hurting himself.

960

:

I call B.S. on that.

961

:

He'll probably not set a goal

962

:

for to be right there with you

as long as he can, but, Yeah.

963

:

Good luck with

with everything that you're doing.

964

:

So happy to see you happy.

965

:

you know, when you, when you did retire,

it was like,

966

:

whoa,

that's really early for a guy like Tom.

967

:

You look.

You look like you found your way.

968

:

And, just thanks for sharing your story

with us and our listeners today.

969

:

Yeah, thanks for having me again.

970

:

And, really enjoyed it.

971

:

And, yeah, we have you back next year

after the marathon.

972

:

Yeah, we have you back. Thankfully.

973

:

That would be nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

974

:

All the pressure again.

975

:

Oh, I'm feeling it already, you know.

976

:

No, no. Go easy.

977

:

No. And then you can come to my house

and sit next to me here.

978

:

We can do the podcast.

Both of us sitting. Yeah. yeah.

979

:

So that's.

980

:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's do it.

981

:

Hey, that’s everything for this week.

982

:

And now please remember to follow us

@OddTandem

983

:

on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook

and wherever you get your podcasts.

984

:

Huge thanks to Tom

for being our guest today.

985

:

Also remember, if you want to see

the video version of this podcast,

986

:

it's up on our YouTube channel right now

youtube.com/@OddTandem.

987

:

And if you want the full

uninterrupted version of this podcast

988

:

and your name in the titles,

just head to our Patreon

989

:

where you can sign up for $5 a month

and keep this podcast going.

990

:

That's patreon.com/OddTandem

thanks to our Patreon members!

991

:

Scott, Steven Kimbrough, Marie Teixeira,

Jeff Kralik,

992

:

Brian Colon, Chris Merritt,

Tim Farriss, Jim, David Swartwout,

993

:

Bill Babcock and Randy Corbett who’ve done

just that, who have just done that.

994

:

And remember, if you want your question

in our next mailbag episode,

995

:

make sure you keep sending us your

questions to OddTandem@ShockedGiraffe.com

996

:

or any of our odd tandem

social media channels.

997

:

And please keep sharing the podcast

and keep leaving your reviews

998

:

wherever you are listening.

999

:

It really helps us to build our audience.

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About the Podcast

The Odd Tandem Cycling Podcast with Bobby Julich and Jens Voigt
Bobby Julich and Jens Voigt on all things cycling
Bobby Julich and Jens Voigt are back with a brand new cycling podcast. Speaking to the biggest names in the professional peloton and sharing their wisdom from their own careers.